Torlan
01-22-2009, 05:17 PM
For those that haven't seen this (Not my post, taken from another forum):
Ok.. I couldn't post over in the Mechanics forum so I'll post here since there has been a lot of discussion of 1h vs. 2h damage, usefulness, etc.
Please keep the discussion civil and productive...
Also please read the entire post before commenting.
Since I'm the "show me" type of person I went out tonite and did a quick test to see what the difference in 1h vs. 2h damage was. Straight up. No Buffs. As close as possible to the same stats. My Strength and Weapon Skill were not exactly the same but they were only 3 points off (best I could do with the gear I had on hand). Since 3 pnts is such a small percentage I figured it would not skew the results substantially.
I fought two 35th level Gurtbash Gnobleaters. I didn't parse logs I simply took screen shots.
Test 1:
233 STR
232 WS
39.2 DPS 1h
3.0 Spd
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3.../DPSTest1h.jpg
Test2:
230 STR
229 WS
53.7 DPS 2h
3.3 Spd
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3.../DPSTest2h.jpg
The images clearly show 2h ability damage is IDENTICAL to 1h ability damage.
Auto attack damage does change.
Lets check out the famous Combat Mechanics page
http://disquette.wordpress.com/warha...bat-mechanics/
We need to compute a few things first..
ARMOR.. This is the amount shown by mitigation. It should be constant assuming equal Weapon Skill (which I pretty much have).
31 / ( 59 + 31 ) = 34.4
59 / ( 108 + 59 ) = 35.3
49 / ( 89 + 49 ) = 35.5
59 / ( 109 + 59 ) = 35.1
Ok.. so we'll call it 35%
To compute TOUGHNESS he uses the following formula:
tou = 10*((((0.1*Str + Wdps)*Wspeed)-TDmg)/Wspeed)
Where TDmg = total damage done by auto attack before armor
Tough1 = 10 *((((0.1 *233 + 39.2) * 3.0 ) - (59 + 31) ) / 3.0 ) = 325
Tough2 = 10 *((((0.1 *230 + 53.7) * 3.3 ) - (89 + 49) ) / 3.3 ) = 348.8
Ok.. we have a slight discrepency here.. not sure why.
Let's go to the damage formula and see if it all works out (which it better):
Dmg = ((StrBon/10) + Wdps)*(Wspeed)*(1-Armor)
Where StrBon is the difference between your Strength and opponents Toughness
Test1:
Dmg1 = ( ( 233 - 325 ) / 10 ) + 39.2) * ( 3.0 ) * ( 1 - 0.35 ) = 58.5
Agrees perfectly (with rounding).. which of course it should since it is just a reverse of the formula used to compute the Tough and Armor in the first place, but it does predict the auto attack damage.
Dmg2 = ( ( 230 - 348.8 ) / 10 ) + 53.7 ) * ( 3.3 ) * ( 1 - 0.35 ) = 89.7
Once again perfect as it should be..
Now the tricky stuff.. Let's take a look at the Special Attacks
According to the post:
Sdmg = (((StrBon/10)*2 + Wdps)*1.5 + Admg)*(1-armor)
where Admg is the extra damage from the attack per the tooltip
My Clobber with my (full Da Toughest) spec is 133
Sdmg1 = ( ( ( ( 233 - 325 ) / 10 ) * 2 + 39.2 ) * 1.5 + 133 ) * ( 1 - 0.35 ) = 106.73
Looks pretty close to me.
Sdmg2 = ( ( ( ( 230 - 307 ) / 10 ) * 2 + 53.7 ) * 1.5 + 133 ) * ( 1 - 0.35 ) = 123.7925
AHAH!!!! HERE IS WHERE THE WHEELS FALL OFF THE WAGON!!!!!!
It appears that the forumla is not working for 2 handers!
Currently it is not clear if this is for Black Orc only or because of some other factor in the test.
A quick note.. since I haven't read all the 143 responses to his post. But on one of the early responses (in August) someone said they had tested with 1h and 2h and the formulas held. There are two possibilities.. they only tested auto-attack (fairly likely), or something got broke since there (also very possible).
And a second test from him:
So I was very interested it was possible that 2h ability damage came out the same as 1h. It seems impossible unless somehow the stats being used for ability damage were identical in my tests, which they really weren't. The DPS, Spd, Level of the weapon were all different. Did damage depend solely on ability level? That seemed highly unlikely, so I wanted to test how/if ability damage changed with a one-hander.
So I got some one-handers, and wanting to eliminate the possibility that my damage was clamped due to level I killed bears outside the Warcamp in Talabecland. I tested on 23rd thru 26th level bears, but I will only present the 25th level bear results since they pretty much tell the story.
I usedg Disquette's formula's (shown above) to reverse compute Toughness and Armor. Although I can't be sure these are vaild they do seem to hold in every case and did yield the very similar values for all the weapons I tested.
Target Mob = 25 Level Forest Bear.
Armor = 23%
Toughness = 219 - 224
I tested 5 different one-handed axes and tried to hold STR and WS as close as possible. STR varied from 300-305 and WS varied from 237-239. I used only Clobber for all these tests, since my previous test showed pretty much all my abilities have the same results. I wanted to keep these tests relatively "contained". More tests can be done later. My tooltop listed damage for Clobber is 133.
1) Echelon Big Choppa - 35.6dps, 2.8spd, 29th level (300 STR, 239 WS)
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=701404
Clobber - 163 (49)
AutoAtk - 93 (28 )
223.8 toughness
2) Loppa of Dragonsoul - 39.2dps, 3.0spd, 29th level (305 STR, 238 WS)
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=72770
Clobber - 169 (51)
AutoAtk - 110 (33)
220.3 toughness
3) Frenzied Choppa - 36.0dps, 2.9spd, 29th level (305 STR, 237 WS)
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=413380
Clobber - 166 (50)
AutoAtk - 99 (30)
220.1 toughness
4) Echelon Cleava - 36.0dps, 2.3spd, 29th level (308 STR, 237 WS)
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=701380
Clobber - 167 (50)
AutoAtk - 79 (23)
224.5 toughness
5) Outlaw's Choppa - 38.0dps, 2.5spd, 31th level (307 STR, 239 WS)
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=414172
Clobber - 168 (51)
AutoAtk - 90 (27)
219 toughness
First let us compare tests #3 and #4. We see here the only real difference is 2.6 spd vs. 2.3 spd.
Clearly we can conclude..
SPEED HAS NO AFFECT ON ABILITY DAMAGE
This does not come as a surprise to anyone.
Let's recheck once again if Disquette's Ability damage formula holds for my tests.
#1) (( 300 - 223.8 ) / 10 *2 + 35.6 ) * 1.5 + 133 ) * ( 1 - 0.23 ) = 161 ( 48 )
#2) (( 305 - 220.3) / 10 *2 + 39.2 ) * 1.5 + 133 ) * ( 1 - 0.23 ) = 167 ( 50 )
#3) (( 305 - 220.1) / 10 *2 + 36.0 ) * 1.5 + 133 ) * ( 1 - 0.23 ) = 164 ( 49 )
#4) (( 308 - 224.5) / 10 *2 + 36.0 ) * 1.5 + 133 ) * ( 1 - 0.23 ) = 163 ( 49 )
#5) (( 307 - 219.0) / 10 *2 + 38.0 ) * 1.5 + 133 ) * ( 1 - 0.23 ) = 167 ( 50 )
These are close.. but a little off which bothers me somewhat.
So now let me blow your mind.
ALL THESE TESTS WERE DONE WITHOUT A SHIELD
I had a thought that somehow shields might be affecting the outcome so I did not use a shield for any of the above tests.
Then I put on my level 30 blue shield. Slaggrot's Blocka (Level 30 blue)
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=28198
2) Loppa of Dragonsoul - 39.2dps, 3.0spd, 29th level (305 STR, 238 WS)
Clobber w/o shield - 169 (51)
Clobber with shield - 184 (55)
3) Frenzied Choppa - 36.0dps, 2.9spd, 29th level (305 STR, 237 WS)
Clobber w/o shield - 166 (50)
Clobber with shield - 180 (55)
4) Echelon Cleava - 36.0dps, 2.3spd, 29th level (308 STR, 237 WS)
Clobber w/o shield - 167 (50)
Clobber with shield - 181 (55)
5) Outlaw's Choppa - 38.0dps, 2.5spd, 31th level (307 STR, 239 WS)
Clobber w/o shield - 168 (51)
Clobber with shield - 183 (55)
That's right folks...
YOUR SHIELD AFFECTS YOUR 1h DPS
Now I don't have a formula for this. Not even close.
But I did go out today and get a few shields and tried a test on 4 level 25 bears.
I'm higher level and wearing different gear, but only changed my shield for these (except when I removed a piece of Jewelry to offset the str on the Sentry Blocka)
Sentry Blocka - Level 24 green (I had -2 str for this test)
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=701152
220 (51)
Echelon Blocka - Level 29 green
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=701392
222 (50)
Slaggrot's Blocka - Level 30 blue
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=28198
237 (54)
Staunch Blocka - Level 33 green
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=414952
222 (50)
So what appears to be happening here is..
ONLY THE QUALITY OF THE SHIELD MATTERS NOT THE LEVEL !
You can clearly see that my level 24 and level 33 shield were nearly identical, while the blue shield had WAY more damage! I need some different level blue shields to test, but it certainly looks that way.
Ok.. I couldn't post over in the Mechanics forum so I'll post here since there has been a lot of discussion of 1h vs. 2h damage, usefulness, etc.
Please keep the discussion civil and productive...
Also please read the entire post before commenting.
Since I'm the "show me" type of person I went out tonite and did a quick test to see what the difference in 1h vs. 2h damage was. Straight up. No Buffs. As close as possible to the same stats. My Strength and Weapon Skill were not exactly the same but they were only 3 points off (best I could do with the gear I had on hand). Since 3 pnts is such a small percentage I figured it would not skew the results substantially.
I fought two 35th level Gurtbash Gnobleaters. I didn't parse logs I simply took screen shots.
Test 1:
233 STR
232 WS
39.2 DPS 1h
3.0 Spd
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3.../DPSTest1h.jpg
Test2:
230 STR
229 WS
53.7 DPS 2h
3.3 Spd
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3.../DPSTest2h.jpg
The images clearly show 2h ability damage is IDENTICAL to 1h ability damage.
Auto attack damage does change.
Lets check out the famous Combat Mechanics page
http://disquette.wordpress.com/warha...bat-mechanics/
We need to compute a few things first..
ARMOR.. This is the amount shown by mitigation. It should be constant assuming equal Weapon Skill (which I pretty much have).
31 / ( 59 + 31 ) = 34.4
59 / ( 108 + 59 ) = 35.3
49 / ( 89 + 49 ) = 35.5
59 / ( 109 + 59 ) = 35.1
Ok.. so we'll call it 35%
To compute TOUGHNESS he uses the following formula:
tou = 10*((((0.1*Str + Wdps)*Wspeed)-TDmg)/Wspeed)
Where TDmg = total damage done by auto attack before armor
Tough1 = 10 *((((0.1 *233 + 39.2) * 3.0 ) - (59 + 31) ) / 3.0 ) = 325
Tough2 = 10 *((((0.1 *230 + 53.7) * 3.3 ) - (89 + 49) ) / 3.3 ) = 348.8
Ok.. we have a slight discrepency here.. not sure why.
Let's go to the damage formula and see if it all works out (which it better):
Dmg = ((StrBon/10) + Wdps)*(Wspeed)*(1-Armor)
Where StrBon is the difference between your Strength and opponents Toughness
Test1:
Dmg1 = ( ( 233 - 325 ) / 10 ) + 39.2) * ( 3.0 ) * ( 1 - 0.35 ) = 58.5
Agrees perfectly (with rounding).. which of course it should since it is just a reverse of the formula used to compute the Tough and Armor in the first place, but it does predict the auto attack damage.
Dmg2 = ( ( 230 - 348.8 ) / 10 ) + 53.7 ) * ( 3.3 ) * ( 1 - 0.35 ) = 89.7
Once again perfect as it should be..
Now the tricky stuff.. Let's take a look at the Special Attacks
According to the post:
Sdmg = (((StrBon/10)*2 + Wdps)*1.5 + Admg)*(1-armor)
where Admg is the extra damage from the attack per the tooltip
My Clobber with my (full Da Toughest) spec is 133
Sdmg1 = ( ( ( ( 233 - 325 ) / 10 ) * 2 + 39.2 ) * 1.5 + 133 ) * ( 1 - 0.35 ) = 106.73
Looks pretty close to me.
Sdmg2 = ( ( ( ( 230 - 307 ) / 10 ) * 2 + 53.7 ) * 1.5 + 133 ) * ( 1 - 0.35 ) = 123.7925
AHAH!!!! HERE IS WHERE THE WHEELS FALL OFF THE WAGON!!!!!!
It appears that the forumla is not working for 2 handers!
Currently it is not clear if this is for Black Orc only or because of some other factor in the test.
A quick note.. since I haven't read all the 143 responses to his post. But on one of the early responses (in August) someone said they had tested with 1h and 2h and the formulas held. There are two possibilities.. they only tested auto-attack (fairly likely), or something got broke since there (also very possible).
And a second test from him:
So I was very interested it was possible that 2h ability damage came out the same as 1h. It seems impossible unless somehow the stats being used for ability damage were identical in my tests, which they really weren't. The DPS, Spd, Level of the weapon were all different. Did damage depend solely on ability level? That seemed highly unlikely, so I wanted to test how/if ability damage changed with a one-hander.
So I got some one-handers, and wanting to eliminate the possibility that my damage was clamped due to level I killed bears outside the Warcamp in Talabecland. I tested on 23rd thru 26th level bears, but I will only present the 25th level bear results since they pretty much tell the story.
I usedg Disquette's formula's (shown above) to reverse compute Toughness and Armor. Although I can't be sure these are vaild they do seem to hold in every case and did yield the very similar values for all the weapons I tested.
Target Mob = 25 Level Forest Bear.
Armor = 23%
Toughness = 219 - 224
I tested 5 different one-handed axes and tried to hold STR and WS as close as possible. STR varied from 300-305 and WS varied from 237-239. I used only Clobber for all these tests, since my previous test showed pretty much all my abilities have the same results. I wanted to keep these tests relatively "contained". More tests can be done later. My tooltop listed damage for Clobber is 133.
1) Echelon Big Choppa - 35.6dps, 2.8spd, 29th level (300 STR, 239 WS)
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=701404
Clobber - 163 (49)
AutoAtk - 93 (28 )
223.8 toughness
2) Loppa of Dragonsoul - 39.2dps, 3.0spd, 29th level (305 STR, 238 WS)
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=72770
Clobber - 169 (51)
AutoAtk - 110 (33)
220.3 toughness
3) Frenzied Choppa - 36.0dps, 2.9spd, 29th level (305 STR, 237 WS)
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=413380
Clobber - 166 (50)
AutoAtk - 99 (30)
220.1 toughness
4) Echelon Cleava - 36.0dps, 2.3spd, 29th level (308 STR, 237 WS)
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=701380
Clobber - 167 (50)
AutoAtk - 79 (23)
224.5 toughness
5) Outlaw's Choppa - 38.0dps, 2.5spd, 31th level (307 STR, 239 WS)
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=414172
Clobber - 168 (51)
AutoAtk - 90 (27)
219 toughness
First let us compare tests #3 and #4. We see here the only real difference is 2.6 spd vs. 2.3 spd.
Clearly we can conclude..
SPEED HAS NO AFFECT ON ABILITY DAMAGE
This does not come as a surprise to anyone.
Let's recheck once again if Disquette's Ability damage formula holds for my tests.
#1) (( 300 - 223.8 ) / 10 *2 + 35.6 ) * 1.5 + 133 ) * ( 1 - 0.23 ) = 161 ( 48 )
#2) (( 305 - 220.3) / 10 *2 + 39.2 ) * 1.5 + 133 ) * ( 1 - 0.23 ) = 167 ( 50 )
#3) (( 305 - 220.1) / 10 *2 + 36.0 ) * 1.5 + 133 ) * ( 1 - 0.23 ) = 164 ( 49 )
#4) (( 308 - 224.5) / 10 *2 + 36.0 ) * 1.5 + 133 ) * ( 1 - 0.23 ) = 163 ( 49 )
#5) (( 307 - 219.0) / 10 *2 + 38.0 ) * 1.5 + 133 ) * ( 1 - 0.23 ) = 167 ( 50 )
These are close.. but a little off which bothers me somewhat.
So now let me blow your mind.
ALL THESE TESTS WERE DONE WITHOUT A SHIELD
I had a thought that somehow shields might be affecting the outcome so I did not use a shield for any of the above tests.
Then I put on my level 30 blue shield. Slaggrot's Blocka (Level 30 blue)
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=28198
2) Loppa of Dragonsoul - 39.2dps, 3.0spd, 29th level (305 STR, 238 WS)
Clobber w/o shield - 169 (51)
Clobber with shield - 184 (55)
3) Frenzied Choppa - 36.0dps, 2.9spd, 29th level (305 STR, 237 WS)
Clobber w/o shield - 166 (50)
Clobber with shield - 180 (55)
4) Echelon Cleava - 36.0dps, 2.3spd, 29th level (308 STR, 237 WS)
Clobber w/o shield - 167 (50)
Clobber with shield - 181 (55)
5) Outlaw's Choppa - 38.0dps, 2.5spd, 31th level (307 STR, 239 WS)
Clobber w/o shield - 168 (51)
Clobber with shield - 183 (55)
That's right folks...
YOUR SHIELD AFFECTS YOUR 1h DPS
Now I don't have a formula for this. Not even close.
But I did go out today and get a few shields and tried a test on 4 level 25 bears.
I'm higher level and wearing different gear, but only changed my shield for these (except when I removed a piece of Jewelry to offset the str on the Sentry Blocka)
Sentry Blocka - Level 24 green (I had -2 str for this test)
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=701152
220 (51)
Echelon Blocka - Level 29 green
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=701392
222 (50)
Slaggrot's Blocka - Level 30 blue
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=28198
237 (54)
Staunch Blocka - Level 33 green
http://www.wardb.com/item.aspx?id=414952
222 (50)
So what appears to be happening here is..
ONLY THE QUALITY OF THE SHIELD MATTERS NOT THE LEVEL !
You can clearly see that my level 24 and level 33 shield were nearly identical, while the blue shield had WAY more damage! I need some different level blue shields to test, but it certainly looks that way.