What Went Wrong with Warhammer Online? A Postmortem.

[Cambios]

This is might be controversial, but from reading through recent comments perhaps it won't be. Hopefully you will find the analysis and insights reasonably sound and share your own opinions.


What Went Wrong with Warhammer Online? A Postmortem. (http://www.brighthub.com/video-games/mmo/articles/44427.aspx)


The big question really is whether or not WAR can turn the ship around. Honestly, I am dubious at the moment. The next few months will really tell us a lot, but some of the mistakes listed in that article do not seem like things they can easily correct.

[Dall dies to much]

it wasn't daoc 2 with Warhammer skins

that .. was ... the whole issue

edit: lol.. read the thing... what I say stands


war is under 150k now

[Drakhon]

For some reason they were so set on WAR not being "DAoC 2" that they took it a ridiculous distance in the other direction. They excluded features (like keeps, for a long time) for the sole reason that they were in DAoC, which is actually worse than including a feature just because it's in another game like we see all the time.

[Athelstaine]

That was very well written and spot on.

[Knight_Marshal]

I kind of disagree with the OP of the Witch Elf.

They were designed to do one thing. Kill an enemy player in one on one combat in a RvR game. They did this and did it well. However they were extremely squishy and often behind enemy lines when they did this and very often died.

The problem was that people focused on getting killed once and not the number of times the WE died. So MYTHIC gutted the class to the point that if you were not 40/50 when 1.2 came out you sucked. I wasn't and it became a struggle to do anything with my WE. Then it became a struggle just to log in.

The is not OP, that is bad design.

[Gisli]

Cambios -- Did you write that? In any case, while I think the article hits many important problems, I think it misses some of the most important. I'll list my 4 biggest issues (from a prior post that I made elsewhere, so I can claim to have done this before reading the article :)).

1) Terrible performance

I think nearly everyone who quits this game (and even those who stick it out) will agree that this is a major factor in reducing their enjoyment. And it goes beyond the obvious in-your-face damage to gameplay. As a "mitigation" to the lousy performance, Mythic gutted the endgame by instancing and supply lining. Talk about a big tail wagging a little dog!

2) Terrible endgame (supply lined forts, instances in city, PvE mixed into city siege)

The article hit this one.

3) Terrible realm balance

The article hit this one. Of course this is another thing that the typical player sees right off. Mythic has convinced me that all PvP and RvR games should just put identical classes on both sides.

4) A pervasive infrastructure of anti-community features and implementations in a game that should have been fundamentally about building community.

I submit that this a huge feature in Warhammer's failure. Here is just a sampling of the ways this game is anti-community throughout its design.

* No mechanism for communicating in large-scale RvR. Even /2 is broken (it doesn't reach the warcamps), and nothing in Warhammer compares to a DAOC BG channel.
* You can easily solo your way to L40. No reason to group up *ever*. This turns out to be important. In most MMOs, really antisocial jerks tend to get weeded out by the leveling grind, because in most MMOs, you better make at least a few friends to progres. Not so in Warhammer. There is only one thing that you really need to get along with anyone to do in this game, and that is dungeons. There isn't really any reason why someone even needs to join a guild, let alone a strong one. And nothing to filter out people who can't function socially in an MMO.
* You don't really need any help to do crafting. And the "economy" such as it is can be totally anoymous via the auction house. So no communty building there.
* PQs always seem to be held up as this great innovation. Even the article calls this out. But notice that there is no support for this claim, either in the article or anywhere else someone throws out the random "PQs were a good idea." The fact is, PQs were pretty much a failure in Warhammer. There are something like 200 PvE PQs per side scattered throughout the chapters (22 x 3 x 3). Except during the first week or two of launch, in T1 and T2, there was never the population base to sustain this. Almost never will there be enough people to do any given PQ. And there is no real need to do PQs. You don't need them for XP. You don't need them for the gear. The idea might be good. The implementation was terrible, in retrospect.
* Open groups and the open PQ mechanism just added to the lack of realm cohesion. Instead of adding to the opportunities for people to meet each other and interact, they just added to the sense of anonymity and isolation. You pop into a group, do something real quick, and pop back out. Even in RvR, generally speaking you don't need to get invited into a group to participate, like you did in DAOC. So there's nothing to promote class balance within a group (other than after-the-fact shuffling of people) and nothing to enforce good behavior (this jerk never gets invited to groups).

[Lonerloe]

* You can easily solo your way to L40. No reason to group up *ever*. This turns out to be important. In most MMOs, really antisocial jerks tend to get weeded out by the leveling grind, because in most MMOs, you better make at least a few friends to progres. Not so in Warhammer. There is only one thing that you really need to get along with anyone to do in this game, and that is dungeons. There isn't really any reason why someone even needs to join a guild, let alone a strong one. And nothing to filter out people who can't function socially in an MMO.
* You don't really need any help to do crafting. And the "economy" such as it is can be totally anoymous via the auction house. So no communty building there.
* PQs always seem to be held up as this great innovation. Even the article calls this out. But notice that there is no support for this claim, either in the article or anywhere else someone throws out the random "PQs were a good idea." The fact is, PQs were pretty much a failure in Warhammer. There are something like 200 PvE PQs per side scattered throughout the chapters (22 x 3 x 3). Except during the first week or two of launch, in T1 and T2, there was never the population base to sustain this. Almost never will there be enough people to do any given PQ. And there is no real need to do PQs. You don't need them for XP. You don't need them for the gear. The idea might be good. The implementation was terrible, in retrospect.
* Open groups and the open PQ mechanism just added to the lack of realm cohesion. Instead of adding to the opportunities for people to meet each other and interact, they just added to the sense of anonymity and isolation. You pop into a group, do something real quick, and pop back out. Even in RvR, generally speaking you don't need to get invited into a group to participate, like you did in DAOC. So there's nothing to promote class balance within a group (other than after-the-fact shuffling of people) and nothing to enforce good behavior (this jerk never gets invited to groups).

These are major shortcomings if your competitive advantage comes from being able to structure your life around an MMO. If, however, the MMO must be wedged into the interstices of your life, not so much.

The above mentioned qualities are what made WoW and DAoC fail for me and many others. If you are late to the party or your group out levels you the game is over.

If you are part of the ten percent suffering from "low threshold of boredom" (ADD) this is a nice game. With a few well placed alts you can grab a few scenarios for lunch. Dark Crag will always have scenarios popping. Not necessarily because all other servers suck, but because it is the only way to get anything close to a fair fight.

This debate is really much like the previous one and the sides are close to the same. Hard core gamers vs the zerg. But the hard core will always be quick to jump to the next game because the advantage of extra play time has more leverage in a new game. They will become the experts and pundits and perveyers of the new dogma. Fun stuff, no doubt.

1. Here in War the RvR assures some freshness because people are more unpredictable than AI.

2. I don't need two extra accounts for buff bots like DAoC. Rather, every class can find a way to be helpful even at the low end of the tier. The lack of mirrors keeps the balance fuzzy enough that I can always claim underdog status.

3. I don't have to keep up with others or even be guilded because of scenarios and the open grouping.

The very things that mitigate the advantages of the hard core gamer are the same ones that endear this game to the zerg.

So, I agree, you folks are dead right... from your perpective.

Loner

[Fhuul]

These are major shortcomings if your competitive advantage comes from being able to structure your life around an MMO. If, however, the MMO must be wedged into the interstices of your life, not so much.

The above mentioned qualities are what made WoW and DAoC fail for me and many others. If you are late to the party or your group out levels you the game is over.

If you are part of the ten percent suffering from "low threshold of boredom" (ADD) this is a nice game. With a few well placed alts you can grab a few scenarios for lunch. Dark Crag will always have scenarios popping. Not necessarily because all other servers suck, but because it is the only way to get anything close to a fair fight.

This debate is really much like the previous one and the sides are close to the same. Hard core gamers vs the zerg. But the hard core will always be quick to jump to the next game because the advantage of extra play time has more leverage in a new game. They will become the experts and pundits and perveyers of the new dogma. Fun stuff, no doubt.

1. Here in War the RvR assures some freshness because people are more unpredictable than AI.

2. I don't need two extra accounts for buff bots like DAoC. Rather, every class can find a way to be helpful even at the low end of the tier. The lack of mirrors keeps the balance fuzzy enough that I can always claim underdog status.

3. I don't have to keep up with others or even be guilded because of scenarios and the open grouping.

The very things that mitigate the advantages of the hard core gamer are the same ones that endear this game to the zerg.

So, I agree, you folks are dead right... from your perpective.

Loner

Honestly, most "hardcore gamers" have just as many hours tied up with jobs, families, social events, other hobbies as any of the "casual gamers" who list a lack a time as the main reason for their inability to compete. Compare /played time across the board, and I think you'd find it pretty close between the various playstyles. Of course there's gonna be the odd few packing in 12 hour days on this, but they really make up a tiny sliver of your playerbase. Be willing to bet that if you gave those casuals 12 hours a day, they'd still be just as terrible when they face a team of organized and coordinated individuals that only play 2 hours a day. :p

As for the "Open Party" impact on the community, I agree 100% with Gisli on this. The ability to come and go without forging any kind of bond with the people you are grouping with kills the community building that takes place in most MMOs. I do like that there's an easy way to list groups that have open slots - the only change I'd make is to kill the /join command. It's not a matter of making everyone go through a grueling interview before allowing them to join, and more about just putting a "voice" to the "faces" in your group. A much more human way of interacting with your fellow realm mates, wouldn't you agree?

As it stands in WAR, it caters completely to the social hermits that are to shy to speak up even when they have the benefit of online anonymity to overcome their awkwardness in group settings.

[Cambios]

Witch Elves: KM, I agree. I don't think the WE was OP - especially not BW/WP/WH level OP. But I kinda had to throw that in there, lest I be accused of only slagging Order classes for being OP.

Gisli, yes I wrote it. I need to go back and add a section on server performance. That was indeed huge, and I should not have left it out. I focused my analysis on game design DECISIONS, because I generally find them the most interesting and they provide the best object lessons to other game developers. The technical problems, while huge, are less of an issue for future developers because modern engines just do things a lot better than the one WAR uses.

Also, your point #4 is an extremely good one. I think it is a bit esoteric and hard for the average reader to understand. It is almost a "you had to be there" type issue. But I agree 100% that their terrible community tools really stuck a dagger in the heart of this game's sense of realm pride.

I would really appreciate it if you'd go to the comments in the article and at a minimum add your #4. I have already added a section in the MAJOR problems about server performance, instancing, forts/suppy lines, etc.

[Gisli]

Cambios -- Done. And I added one of the most important points to that, which I forgot above.

* There are many incentives for perverse behavior. For example, rewards for defending turned out to be a bad idea. Many actually wanted the enemy to hit their fort or city for the low-effort rewards.

Regarding server performance: I think Mythic made a design decision to go with a particular game engine. And then endorsed that design decision when the Beta showed them that the game engine clearly was not adequate to the task. That really is a lesson for MMO game designers of the future.

Lonerloe -- I understand why you like the convenience of not needing to engage in social interaction to succeed. This is why the game got designed the way it did. What you don't recognize is how big a cost was paid in return for the convenience in the end game. I don't think anyone realized what would happen before the game went live. I don't recall any of the Beta testers bringing this up as an issue. As I said above, most MMOs have an effective filter for keeping a goodly fraction of the anti-social elements out of the endgame by making it so they don't succeed. And most MMOs train people in working together. But not Warhammer. While being a subtle concept, it has a big impact. Just consider how many antisocial people made it to the endgame in Warhammer.

Life is full of tradeoffs. Sometimes, having to put in more effort (especially if that effort is related to rewarding social skills in a social game) is a good thing. I hope future game designers learn from the mistakes of Warhammer. Before this, I certainly didn't realize that rewarding people for defense in a MMO just as much as for offense is a perverse incentive. Before this, I didn't realize that low-grind/no-group leveling has bad social consequences.

[Cambios]

Gisli, I think you have always been very good at recognizing some of the subtle mistakes that have a huge final impact. I remember a post you made about DAoC years ago that really got to the core of how RvR failed in that game as well. I don't remember all the details, but I remember one point in particular. Paraphrasing: "The degree to which incremental advantages in gear and skill can affect skirmish outcomes simply got too large. When a gank group of 8 can fight and defeat 16 decent players, that's fine. But when a gank group of 8 can defeat 24-32 decent players, things have gone too far."

Also, thanks for adding your comment to the article. :)

I haven't played WAR in a few weeks now (way too busy at work, and too frustrated with WAR to login and suffer).

What is the new management saying about what they plant to do? Are they acknowledging the severe class balance problems?

Ironically, the server performance issues are going to be solved pretty soon by simple lack of players.

[Kordine]

While people like to tout forced grouping as a good thing I don't think a game can survive by doing what DaoC did. The gaming market has changed and players won't put up with that anymore.

What Mythic did make a mistake on is the xp nerf in groups. My Sorc is now 38 and I get more XP solo than grouped with my guild because until I hit 37 the 40's willing to help me would kill my xp. I have seen as much as a 90% reduction in xp by having a 40 in the group if theres a 4 level difference to the lowest member in the group. What you can do is turn your group into a wb and place the 40's into a seperate group.

[colnar]

That is a great idea Kordine.

[Vydor]

If the game is good and fun, having to group will not prevent it from growing and having a healthy playerbase, DAoC proved that. It will also promote a healthy community, which imo has been overlooked in recent MMOs. For me, personally the community aspect is the most important part of the game.

[Kordine]

I didn't play DaoC but I have heard the forced grouping praised and criticized by the same people. So while it can build a good community it can also leave people behind. If you play less than your guild or at different times then you will fall behind. If solo'ing is a huge grind then you have to find a new group. That would impact my fun level.

[Athelstaine]

It's not like Daoc is the only game that had group invites only. To my knowledge every game besides War, you had to be invited into a group. As far not playing as much? Regardless of any grouping rules, if you dont play as much as others, you will be left behind. That's a fact,unless you have good friends that will play alts until the "Group" can be formed.

[Vasan]

Honestly I couldn't be more of a fan of the open grouping system and the ability to solo.

The open grouping allows groups to form much easier and keeps the action going. Otherwise I fear rvr often just becomes gank groups against gank groups. Don't want random zerglings getting in? Put it on alliance/warband only. It was an excellent tool that really opened up RvR to large groups.

And honestly, WoW showed us that game should allow people to solo, rather than forcing them to join groups to advance. It's just more fair to the players with less time and one who just play every now and again.

[Narg]

I agree with most of the OP, except for the three realm thing. Yea, it was fun in DaoC, but two realms is sufficient... Heck, as much as I loved UO, ONE realm is fine if balanced correctly.

Sadly, balance is esque in this game... More so than three realms.

but that's just my opinion.

[Drakhon]

Heck, as much as I loved UO, ONE realm is fine if balanced correctly.

One "realm" is not RvR, it's Free For All. In reality, FFA is normally really Guild vs Guild, which I think may actually be more enjoyable provided the actual gameplay is good.

Even with identical classes, you can't entirely avoid population balance issues between two realms on the server level. With three realms, it's not much of an issue given the inevitability of shifting alliances.

[Cambios]

Two realms can be great, if you are able to have near perfect class balance and population balance.

But since having even ONE of those things balanced, not to mention both, is so hard, three realms is basically your failsafe. If one realm has OP classes, the other two team up. If one realm has a huge pop advantage, the other two team up. That's basically what happened in DAoC (at least pre-ToA) and it worked pretty well.

[bluucandi]

I didn't play DaoC but I have heard the forced grouping praised and criticized by the same people. So while it can build a good community it can also leave people behind. If you play less than your guild or at different times then you will fall behind. If solo'ing is a huge grind then you have to find a new group. That would impact my fun level.

A criticism: people got hung up on the optimum group class setup: tank, pure healer, and big dps class. All others had a tough time getting groups. I played a warden in early DAoC and remember feeling sorry for the rangers and nightshades as many considered them a useless within groups. No wonder healer bot accounts became popular.

[Cambios]

By the way, if you found this article interesting, you might find it useful to follow my blogging/article twitter account:

http://twitter.com/muckbeast

We have a lot of great stuff planned for the rest of the month. Not just WAR stuff, but MMO stuff in general.

[Dall dies to much]

revised my estimates due to the EA quarter results.

sitting around 200k subs possibly.. maybe less.. my orginial 150k might stand right now

[Mumps]

will read the linked from the op later, but just addressing the "post mortem". WH is not even close to dead. its ea/mythic/bioware and has over 100k subs.

postives: ravens. mac client out. ic at 5 stars on pt. cc immunity timer kinda working.
Ingame ART still and always ROCKS.

Be back later to read the op link.

Mumps.

[Mumps]

1) lack of the 3rd realm.

agree, but there was the dwarf capitol in beta. game isnt even a year old. maybe. p.s. i want 6 caps. :D

2) class balance.

yeah yeah, let me know when you find the grail. its only balanced when i agree it is. gl finding it.

author makes a mistake by conflating class balance with a 3rd realm. no. realm is strategic in nature, class is tactical. guess the author made it past freshman year but didnt hit the rl yet ;)

think the point the linked is trying to make is that 2 weak realms would communicate and gang up on the strongest. as in rl, the verdict is...maybe. class mirrors and balance are more important than a 3rd realm imo because its easier to balance across two than three...get me ? they seems to have enough issues (EA etc) as it is.

3) and 4)
balance solves 3, and 4...well you can lead a squig to water but you cant make it drink ya ? imo solve 3 and then you get 4 just cause its fun to be green :)
5) Meaningless PvP that Lacked Emotional Connection


no comment other than to say emotional connections are internalized, you cant get this then its you, not me. I have a blast playing pvp and its why I play. WoW ? no. EVE ? no. Aion beta ? no idea, hate ncsoft.

note: cute and paste, forgive the font and bold on above.

Etc. Linked Author had abandoned his/her numbering convention and is now just ranting...server performance...ya, yes, maybe...NO. Ive been good lately and no lag in forts or cities. Its you, not me. Maybe the server maybe the client, maybe sunspots....whatever.

"When you try to out-WoW WoW, you generally fail."

no, theres no faction grinding in War. Totally wrong.

cut and paste, sorry..
Too Much Focus on Adding New Content Rather Than Fixing Existing Content

agree. Lotd.

kk, cant bother anymore, linked author seems angry and im just tired so...

Conclusion: Post Mortum means after its dead, its not dead im still having fun playing it. I play on test, I want wh to get fixed etc. GL op with whatever you play.

[Drakhon]

1) lack of the 3rd realm.

agree, but there was the dwarf capitol in beta. game isnt even a year old. maybe. p.s. i want 6 caps. :D



What does that have to do with a third Realm? The six Cities were still split between the two Realms. The design with all six was (theoretically) better, but that doesn't have anything to do with the point you are responding to.



author makes a mistake by conflating class balance with a 3rd realm. no. realm is strategic in nature, class is tactical. guess the author made it past freshman year but didnt hit the rl yet ;)

think the point the linked is trying to make is that 2 weak realms would communicate and gang up on the strongest. as in rl, the verdict is...maybe. class mirrors and balance are more important than a 3rd realm imo because its easier to balance across two than three...get me ? they seems to have enough issues (EA etc) as it is.


Adding a third Realm obviously does not fix class balance in itself. The point is that it mitigates a number of issues (including class and population balance) between the realms as compared to a two-realm system, thus giving the Devs more time to deal with them.

With the way WAR is set up, I don't really think a third realm could have/can be added, anyway, barring a ground-up redesign of the campaign system and world layout. They would have had to incorporate it from the beginning.



5) Meaningless PvP that Lacked Emotional Connection

no comment other than to say emotional connections are internalized, you cant get this then its you, not me. I have a blast playing pvp and its why I play. WoW ? no. EVE ? no. Aion beta ? no idea, hate ncsoft.


The connection he is talking about is the one many people had in DAoC that made it an affront for enemy Realms to have your Keeps or Relics or even be in your frontier. Many people would drop anything else they were doing to defend the Realm not just because fighting enemy players was fun (and the purpose of the game, for that matter), but because of the emotion that could be inspired simply by the enemy's presence.

WAR's design promotes losing Keeps and BOs (and sometimes entire zones) so you can recapture them for the rewards. It promotes losing to the point of having to defend your City because it results in easier rewards than trying to take the enemy's. It's hard to form the kind of emotional connection he's talking about when you're better off failing to protect your Realms assets than actually protecting them.

[Knight_Marshal]

I always said that Chaos should have been their own side with each god having a class represented.

Why would Dark Elves want to join up with a group who wants to destroy the world they intend to rule?

[Athelstaine]

What does that have to do with a third Realm? The six Cities were still split between the two Realms. The design with all six was (theoretically) better, but that doesn't have anything to do with the point you are responding to.



Adding a third Realm obviously does not fix class balance in itself. The point is that it mitigates a number of issues (including class and population balance) between the realms as compared to a two-realm system, thus giving the Devs more time to deal with them.

With the way WAR is set up, I don't really think a third realm could have/can be added, anyway, barring a ground-up redesign of the campaign system and world layout. They would have had to incorporate it from the beginning.



The connection he is talking about is the one many people had in DAoC that made it an affront for enemy Realms to have your Keeps or Relics or even be in your frontier. Many people would drop anything else they were doing to defend the Realm not just because fighting enemy players was fun (and the purpose of the game, for that matter), but because of the emotion that could be inspired simply by the enemy's presence.

WAR's design promotes losing Keeps and BOs (and sometimes entire zones) so you can recapture them for the rewards. It promotes losing to the point of having to defend your City because it results in easier rewards than trying to take the enemy's. It's hard to form the kind of emotional connection he's talking about when you're better off failing to protect your Realms assets than actually protecting them.

That right there is spot on Drakhon. Maybe i need to go outside more but no other game i played has fostered the "Ream Pride" Feeling. I remember when albs were the dominant force on Percival in the beginning. I used to call my real life friends and make them log in when the relics were under attack. Instead of them telling me bugger off,they would log in and help defense and vice versa when i was offline.

[Kordine]

So now we get to the crux of the problem. Basically WAR isn't DAOC 2 with Warhammer skins. My first guild disintegrated because a bunch went to Litch King and the rest wanted DAOC 2 and this game isn't that.

The relic system is loved by those that played DAOC. Thats fine. It won't work in WAR without a mass redesign.

Whats ironic to me is that so many people I know went back to WoW or LOTRO citing the lack of PvE for 40's to do when the don't want to PvP. Thats why Mythic wanted to roll out new content. No matter how many people love PvP it seems that more still expect a PvP game to have a lot of PvE anyway.

[Vasan]

So now we get to the crux of the problem. Basically WAR isn't DAOC 2 with Warhammer skins. My first guild disintegrated because a bunch went to Litch King and the rest wanted DAOC 2 and this game isn't that.

The relic system is loved by those that played DAOC. Thats fine. It won't work in WAR without a mass redesign.

Whats ironic to me is that so many people I know went back to WoW or LOTRO citing the lack of PvE for 40's to do when the don't want to PvP. Thats why Mythic wanted to roll out new content. No matter how many people love PvP it seems that more still expect a PvP game to have a lot of PvE anyway.

Think you have a point there.

While the first wave of people quit the game due to bugs, ctds, lag and so forth, the second wave of people quit due to lack of pve. So then we had mythic slowly developing pve content for people who had already quit. The pve content didn't lure anyone back and helped lots more rvrers quit too.

Now they are finally working on the end game, which they should have done about six months ago. No word yet on class/side re-balancing though, or population issues. Honestly, I never really felt this game left a commerical beta phase.

[Aoann]

I am fine with Warhammer being Warhammer and not DAoC 2.

I really wish they'd just fix the class balance issues and the city seige.

[Drakhon]

So now we get to the crux of the problem. Basically WAR isn't DAOC 2 with Warhammer skins. My first guild disintegrated because a bunch went to Litch King and the rest wanted DAOC 2 and this game isn't that.

The relic system is loved by those that played DAOC. Thats fine. It won't work in WAR without a mass redesign.

I think DAoC 2 is what a large portion of players wanted. Even people I know that didn't play DAoC and have learned about it in other ways wanted that. Like any sequel, though, it's reasonable to assume that things would not be exactly the same except with better graphics or, in this case, a different setting. DAoC certainly wasn't perfect, so I would have expected them to learn from it and take mostly evolutionary steps forward. For instance, I don't think they necessarily had/have to use the Relic system, but Cities proved to be far too complex for them to debug and dependent on PvE in comparison.

As I have said before, they actively avoided functional and popular features of DAoC to avoid making a "sequel" and used WoW features as inspiration to attract a wider audience - there was no way it was going to have that same "magic" as DAoC. That's not to say that it is doomed to absolute failure because of this (I had high hopes for it to the point of near fanboyism), but the performance issues, bugs and anti-community features really haven't allowed it to have the chance it would need.

[Rimalder]

"But... can you imagine those poor bastards grappling their prey, leaping over the rails, swords in hand, screaming, 'Your cats! Give us all your gods-damned cats!'"

Probably off-topic, but I gotta ask. What's that from?

I have a prediction. Pokemon Online will be the game that finally kills WoW. True story. You'll find me there as Rimachu.

[Drakhon]

Red Seas Under Red Skies, Second in the Gentleman Bastard Sequence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lies_of_Locke_Lamora#The_Gentleman_Bastard_Seq uence) by Scott Lynch

[Kordine]

If anyone is familiar with the stunty stompa blog (http://stuntystomper.blogspot.com) he is taking a break from the game. He mentions in his reasons the lack of solo content for high levels.

WAR is my first MMO and what I have learned is that so few people are content to do only PvP that a game needs a lot of varied PvE to keep the players with diverging play styles and likes content. This game attracted a lot of hard core PvP players and lets be honest, care bears. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum though and it all the players in the middle between those extremes that is a challenge to keep happy/interested.

[Warseth]

If anyone is familiar with the stunty stompa blog (http://stuntystomper.blogspot.com) he is taking a break from the game. He mentions in his reasons the lack of solo content for high levels.

WAR is my first MMO and what I have learned is that so few people are content to do only PvP that a game needs a lot of varied PvE to keep the players with diverging play styles and likes content. This game attracted a lot of hard core PvP players and lets be honest, care bears. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum though and it all the players in the middle between those extremes that is a challenge to keep happy/interested.

You are correct in your observations. There are folks that are die hard PVP or PVE...and a little of both.

Things have changed so much in mmo world as for community itself. Many have been brought into the mmo fold through games like Warcraft, Eq2, and other games doing well.

I am one of those who likes plenty of pve content that likes to pvp also. I dont one over the other. When one is lacking it does affect me. I was hoping War at this time would have added like WB raid pve content so guilds would have things to do besides hit a RVR lake.

This game did attract a lot of die hard pvpers....but also attracted a lot of folks like me who like pve a lot to. They lost the pure pve types early....the mixed types like me I assume held out longer. The pure pvp guys I think are what is left now...

[Vasan]

Yeah after the "epic fail" that was tomb of the vulture lord, I do think a sizable amount of the people who do enjoy pve let their accounts expire.

Personally I enjoyed pve to the extent it gave me awesome gear.

[Athelstaine]

I am not saying they need to have Daoc relics. Just that the basic fundamental concept of working together is not being present in this game. It's all.." What's in it for me?" or "I better get phat loot for taking this keep". There is very few people that seems to want to actually play the game for what it was meant to be.

On the other hand it is hard to play the campaign when Mythic decides on bandaid fixes ie.. Supply Lines and such. They did a real shoddy job on this game. Honestly, i am surprised that GW has not pulled the IP away from them. Besides a few locations and names , this is not Warhammer.

I played Warhammer for many years now, Table Top and the RPG. I can understand they wanted a new twist on the world and can accept that. I just wished they would have actually followed some lore when they created the professions.

[Dall dies to much]

I am not saying they need to have Daoc relics. Just that the basic fundamental concept of working together is not being present in this game. It's all.." What's in it for me?" or "I better get phat loot for taking this keep". There is very few people that seems to want to actually play the game for what it was meant to be.

On the other hand it is hard to play the campaign when Mythic decides on bandaid fixes ie.. Supply Lines and such. They did a real shoddy job on this game. Honestly, i am surprised that GW has not pulled the IP away from them. Besides a few locations and names , this is not Warhammer.

I played Warhammer for many years now, Table Top and the RPG. I can understand they wanted a new twist on the world and can accept that. I just wished they would have actually followed some lore when they created the professions.


never bring "lore" up when you talk about GW...

there is no point, GW changes things to sell more metal and plastics

[Drakhon]

The only lore that survives an MMO unscathed is either original to that MMO (DAoC, Aion) or designed for something very similar (D&D settings). Hell, look at what Blizzard has had to do to their own lore to make it work. You could argue that they didn't have to do as much as they've done, but things did have to change for a game where you participate in the epic events of the world and fight primary characters as an individual among many instead of one of a few controllers of entire armies.

That said, Mythic did some extra bending/breaking in order to get everything to fit with their design goals (Realms, archetype-army system, campaign), but I'm not going to fault them too much on that.

[Trul]

DAOC did not have original lore, it was pulled straight from historical lore and scattered throughout the game.

Aion lore is just a rewrite of Final Fantasy XXWTFIII lore. I especially love the japanese porno sound effects, they really set the mood. All the oohing and ahhing is going to make my gf in the other room suspicious. But seriously, I hate NCSoft and SOE and refuse to play any of their gams. All their games are kinda of the like the town tramp. She wears too much make up, but just enough to attract your attention after a bad break-up. Some of your friends tell you it's a trap, don't do it man, but you don't listen to them and do it anyways. The next morning you wake-up with a massive headache and lots of regrets. Some guys stick it out with her for a little bit longer, because "the sex is great," but really they are just lonely and looking for something better to come along.

[Drakhon]

I'm well aware of the basis of DAoC's lore in Norse, Arthurian and Celtic mythology. However, most of that basis extends only to names and some concepts. If they were really trying to portray it as "you're living Norse mythology!", they did it wrong and I would have to remove it as an example.

[Cambios]

Drakhon, (http://www.waronphoenixthrone.org/forum/member.php?u=197)

Thanks for explaining in a very clear manner what I meant by the lack of emotional connection in PvP.

[Cambios]

The comments are getting very interesting on the article now:

What Went Wrong with Warhammer Online? Is it a failure? - Comments
(http://www.brighthub.com/video-games/mmo/articles/44427.aspx?p=5#comments)

[Vasan]

Such as:

The negatives
-----------------------------------
1) Server perfomance is one of the reasons this game died. If you're not in t4 you probably have no clue. Spells take 10 seconds to cast and AP ticks are just as long.

2) Class imbalances. If I were to point my finger at one department for the reason of war's failure it would be the c & c department. I'm sure that BW's and Sorc bomb groups probably wiped over 100,000 people from subscribing to this game. Our 6 men party once wiped 42 people by attacking order from behind while they were engaging a keep lord. Party was 2 sorcs, 1 choppa, 1 chosen, dok and zealot.

Not to mention all the l2play comments by the c&c department. When the customer base and high rank bw's like flaming are saying "Hey we're overpowered and killing your subs" ... you better listen.

3) Lack of a balance mechanism. Like the author pointed out.

[Cambios]

2) Class imbalances. If I were to point my finger at one department for the reason of war's failure it would be the c & c department. I'm sure that BW's and Sorc bomb groups probably wiped over 100,000 people from subscribing to this game. Our 6 men party once wiped 42 people by attacking order from behind while they were engaging a keep lord. Party was 2 sorcs, 1 choppa, 1 chosen, dok and zealot.

Not to mention all the l2play comments by the c&c department. When the customer base and high rank bw's like flaming are saying "Hey we're overpowered and killing your subs" ... you better listen.


No matter how many times this gets said, it still amazes and angers me. :(

[bluucandi]

Minor details, I pick up on them.

Let's talk about one of the infuriating things about WAR... besides all the stuff that's been talked to death... getting stuck. Oh wait, that's been discussed a lot too. :P

This is one of my biggest pet peeves about the environment: getting hung up on frakkin' pebbles!

While I wait for another game to release *cough* I've been playing Fallout 3. I realized something. I have better time navigating the terrain. It was so intelligently designed, still being realistic. You will encounter obstacles and amazingly, a lot are loose - unanchored! Like shopping carts and tin cans. If you collide with such - your character can just kick them out of the way or jump over them. There's even a control for lifting objects and throwing them!

In summary, this is one of the details with which I wish Mythic had implemented more intelligent planning. Perhaps they could have borrowed the same ideas as F3.

[Drakhon]

In summary, this is one of the details with which I wish Mythic had implemented more intelligent planning. Perhaps they could have borrowed the same ideas as F3.

They ran into enough performance trouble just adding player-player collision detection to the requisite player-object kind, never mind object-object CD and physics. Obviously the getting stuck on things shouldn't have happened (and should have been fixed quickly after it did), but adding more performance-impairing calculations certainly wouldn't be the appropriate solution. There is a reason MMOs don't have that kind of realism yet.

[bluucandi]

They ran into enough performance trouble just adding player-player collision detection to the requisite player-object kind, never mind object-object CD and physics. Obviously the getting stuck on things shouldn't have happened (and should have been fixed quickly after it did), but adding more performance-impairing calculations certainly wouldn't be the appropriate solution. There is a reason MMOs don't have that kind of realism yet.

Do you think I'm suggesting that they should have added more move impairment?

I'm saying they should have made the landscape... smoother and less likely to get hung up on. Or give us a work around like in Fallout 3. Perhaps you have not played F3 so it would be difficult for you to understand my point. I am saying... along with the plethora of other issues that drove me frakkin crazy I had to deal with terrain quirks.

If they intentionally left terrain impediments, then I'd say they went overkill.

As the performance issues, those should not have occurred if they had planned and designed their game with better forethought. I complained a often on Warhammer Alliance and once even on the official forum that WAR should have been built on a more robust system. I was furious after all the posts on the forum by those of us pleading with Mythic to fix server issues first before releasing new content - only to have LoTD handed to us instead.

[Drakhon]

I have not played Fallout 3, but I understand what you are describing - it uses the Havok physics engine like many other games such as Half Life 2, which I have played. My point was that the "work around" would have resulted in far worse issues than getting stuck on the terrain sometimes. Unanchored objects like that require too much power, but that's not to say that Mythic couldn't have fixed the hang-up issue in a viable way.

I'm not being hostile here, just explaining. Not everybody understands how complex and processing dependent the seemingly simple things can be.

Interestingly, Fallout 3 uses the same graphics engine as WAR - Gamebryo Element.

[Cambios]

From my reading about graphical engine design, there are two ways to handle collisions:

1) When you collide, you slide around the object.

2) When you collide, you stick to the object and have to back out of it to move around.

Most people go with #1. Warhammer went with #2.

We see the ugly results.

[Gutzntoez]

just a few reasons, in no particular order....some reasons WAR/Mythic is failing

1. you have a company experienced in the 3 realm category.....Land of The Dead was probably thought of as a DFesque savior....wrong.....for many number of reasons you can obviously fill the blank in under....

2. Hardheaded company who is not very test happy....rather they are lets shoot first and then aim later.....they work behind the scenes and communication is a big fail with them...

3. They nerfed and renerfed classes multiple times....i was one of them as a Black Orc....or they flat out ignored others.....when Choppas and Slayers came out i told a buddy of mine...they would be the death of Marauders and White Lions....Mythic likes burying stuff they know they can't fix...or just don't have the time to fix...or plainly won't fix it because the population who plays that class is just too small to worry about anyways. I know this one from history as I played a hunter on Mid Percival "Siam"...they made subtle changes but nothing that ever put us in league with Scouts and Rangers.....later after i quit playing DAoC they made Hunters "uber" from what i've been told....but that's TOO little TOO late....

4. I could go on, but i will just leave by saying that Mythic makes promises it WON'T keep, and they can...they just don't....and when they finally understand they screwed up they scramble to make changes that are half assed....