Discussion: Server types

[Gisli]

OK, so what type of server do people want to play on? We need to have this discussion among the broad community of people who hope to play together on the same server. If things change (like they open new options), then we can revisit it.

First, here is a post from Mark Jacobs that defines things a bit:



The first one we're calling just Open RvR. In that ruleset, other than killing newbies, if you can see an enemy, you can kill an enemy. It is not consentual. They do not have to flag themselves. They do not have to do anything other than sit there and be a target for you. You can go out and happily slaughter Stunties wherever you can find them. Disembowel Dark Elfs, and do other nasty things to Greenskins. So that's number one.

Number 2. Right now called the Core Ruleset. That one is the rule-set where similar to the open ruleset, you cannot kill newbies, cause that's just wrong. Then within the PvE protected zones, or areas, or chapters, we're going to use different things to describe them. The moment an enemy enters into them, that enemy is flagged for RvR. You cannot unflag yourself. The moment you cross into the PvE zone you become a target for anything that is attuned to that realm. If you want to engage in PvP you can with other players, but there it does have to be consentual. Within the RvR areas you cannot unflag yourself, you are always flagged. Within the neutral area, we're talking about that. Will it be safe, will it not be safe. That's one the things we've got to look at. The thing is when you are PvEing in a protected zone, it is always consentual. A neutral area for example might be when you have to cross to a PvE area but both sides use it. It's not for hunting, maybe it's a bridge, maybe it's a road. But that's what we're looking at. it might be consentual it might not. The takeaway is, safe PvE, consentual PvP, and no flagging in RvR areas.

The third one we're going to do, is an RP server. We had them in Camelot and we'll have them here. This will be a standard ruleset for now. However during the during beta we will be doing more polls, more posting and take the temperature of the players and if there is a lot of support for an Open RvR RP rule-set or there isn't as much support for core rule-set RP server, we'll make the appropriate changes. We want to give the players what they want, not what they all want. There are some players as you know who want an FFA server. Right now that's not in our plans. But maybe a year down the road, if players really wanted it, if there was support there and we could make ruleset adjustments to make it work, we would consider it.

Now I just have to point out that during the games development there has been be a change from a single server ruleset way of thinking, to the current varied server ruleset plan. So I asked about what brought the change about.

When we looked at the ruleset and we look at the core rule-set and we looked at the feedback from the beta players, we had a choice. We want open field RvR, we want people to feel that they can PvE in this game, but we also did not want to remove the immersiveness. We didn't want people who play Greenskins to walk into High Elf areas, or fart around the opposing realm and have situations where nothing could be done about that. So we look at the way areas are designed and we looked at the ruleset and said, boy, how can we do this. This is not going to be as much fun for me, this is not what I wanted to see, we looked and looked and said this is the best thing we can do and that's what we did.




So we're looking at these different server types at the moment:
Core
- Enemy factions can only attack each other if both players are flagged for PvP
- Players are automatically flagged for PvP upon entering RvR areas or enemy PvE areas
- Players can choose to turn their flag on at anytime

Open RvR
- All players are constantly flagged for PvP, even in areas that are normally for PvE

Core RP
- Just like the Core server, only players are expected to roleplay their characters

From reading various forums, there appears to be some debate among people who are interested in being in a RolePlay community. The issue is that some people want to be in a RolePlay server, but want to also be in the Open RvR ruleset.

My own feeling is that the Core Ruleset has lots of RvR. If you are familiar with WoW, its not as much a black-and-white decision to make as it was in WoW. Warhammer "core ruleset" servers are probably about halfway in between WoW PvE and PvP servers. I guess that Warhammer Open RvR would be similar to WoW PvP servers.

[stroadt]

I have concerns regarding Open RvR servers, and this is a discussion we had on the Rune boards.

Here are some of the thoughts on the subject


For Open PvP/RvR servers, I'm afraid that if people can RvR anywhere, especially in the PvE zones, people will just find the "emain" zone and most of the combat will gravitate there rather than the real RvR objectives/territories they have setup in the game.

Imagine in DAoC if they had done the realm invasion server and the "emain" combat was relocated to somewhere in Midgard's PvE zone like Mularn.

Without focused RvR zones, not only might the RvR be scattered or misdirected, it might cause more people to take that personal ganker mentality rather than fostering a realm combat mentality. And, if that becomes widespread, a good community will be harder to build on the server.

I can certainly appreciate not liking forced artificial restrictions (lines in the sand) for combat zones, but I think there are some other things we need to consider.
As for the PvP flagging system, it sounds like it will work like WoW's PvE server ruleset, maybe with a splash of SWG's PvP tossed in.

If you are in your PvE zone, and wouldn't mind some PvP combat, you can probably type /pvp to turn your flag on. Any enemy that comes into your territory is automatically flagged for PvP anyway by coming into your zone.

And vice versa. You can go into their tier 3 zone and attack people that 1) are flagged for PvP or 2) attack you first.

I think one of the reasons DAoC worked so well was simply because it had a line between PvE and RvR... you could PvE in the RvR and there are bonuses for doing so but you don't have to. So there are times you can retreat and just kill mindless drones and not have to worry about getting stabbed in the back.
Leveling on a PvP/Open RvR server can give a thrill of constant WAR, but that is a novelty for me. And, it was a novelty that wore thin for me quite fast in WoW. I leveled three characters to max in WoW on PvP servers and several alts (never played on a PvE server there). The novelty of spontaneous combat during PvE was only consistently exciting the first time. It became tired and frustrating when I just wanted to login for an hour or two and make some progress on my character.

I would rather stab flaming needles in my eyes than suffer through another Stranglethorn Vale-type area in WAR.



With the Core ruleset, you have the option of being flagged for combat anywhere, anytime. But you can retire to PvE only areas if you want. You have a choice. The Open RvR ruleset just takes away one of those options for players, you are always flagged for RvR/PvP. The core ruleset can satisfy players with a strong PvE mentality, a strong PvP mentality, or a mixture. Whereas, an Open RvR ruleset only caters to the PvP players.

Moreover, all the descriptions of the game by Hickman, et al. suggest the game was designed with the Core Ruleset in mind. Who knows how the alternate rulesets will play out with the game mechanics they have set in place.

I can appreciate the desire for no artificial boundaries for combat (the line in the sand), but I don't see any advantage for Open RvR over Core or Core RP. They do not give you any functionality or gameplay that you cannot access on a core ruleset.

[Jalec]

I would have to agree with Stroadt on this. It will sour alot of people if they dont have the choice engage in pvp combat. Having played the Open PVP Warcraft server as well i have to say i dislike it immensly. some times you just cant get any momentum going because you getting rolled every 5 seconds by people much higher then you.

I think people will have adequate incentive to actually head out into the rvr area's to kill. the one downside to this is possibly keeping people from skirmishing near the borders. it sounds like a neat idea but could become a real spot of contention in the future.

Personally im leaning toward Core RP. The people i most enjoyed playing with were on the RP servers on DAoC and i have a feeling the same vibe will trasfer to the RP Servers in War.

[LeMieux]

I know I am a minor voice, but I'd still like to chip in for the RP ruleset. It's likely to have a better community, as the swarm of people that jump ship from game to game are more likely to avoid those servers. As stated above also, the Open RVR is just sort of a novelty. It's not like it will be incredibly hard to find a fight in a game based on war.

[Livilla]

I really like open world pvp/rvr and the feeling of having to look over your shoulder all the time that it brings. That being said, the experience with Percival as an rp server I think showed that in a game where a major part is the war thats going on, its not like people won't go out and fight. If we had had the option to sneak past the frontier gates and invade people's realms, I am positive we could have had some epic battles. One thing I wish we would have is that for those who do want the danger of engaging in pvp without expecting it, is that there would be places to level where you were rvr flagged, like the frontiers were. Not sure if that will be an option, though.

I'd be totally fine on either an RP core or RP PvP server, but since the latter is not going to be an option right away, and I am guessing there would be a ton of tools on an only PvP one, I would vote for RP core at this time.

[Cillbo]

RP-Core vote.

1. Since this community was formed on a RP-Core rule set, and most of the folks liked it there, I fear things would get fractured if any other rule set is chosen.

2. Personally, I like to role play.

[Aoann]

RP-Core vote.

1. Since this community was formed on a RP-Core rule set, and most of the folks liked it there, I fear things would get fractured if any other rule set is chosen.

2. Personally, I like to role play.

Second.

[Wolvan]

I have feelings for both sets myself. RP server (thats actually somewhat enforced much like Percival was) is a MUST.

Having played in DAOC with rules that are similar to the rules in DAOC, safe PvE, then zones where its Open RvR. Except...in the WAR core rules, you can go into the enemy PvE safe zones but can't attack them unless they attack you first (aka flag). This makes for more relaxing play for many people who don't want to have to worry about getting ganked while leveling/pvping.

The open rules is more like the WoW pvp server (which I've always played on). Yes there is ganking etc...but I've always found that to be generally exciting and fun. I found the plusses out weighed the negatives for me, and some of my friends. Besides, sometimes I was the ganker.

For WAR, I could go either way. I have a feeling though it will be easier to get the Open people to adopt to a Core ruleset then get the Core (do NOT want ganking, want safe pve) to play on a Open ruleset. And I admit, it makes leveling easier and faster in PvE when you don't have to worry about enemy players. The Core rulesets will also help concentrate RvR into the RvR area's making finding fights easier. And the higher tiers you go, the more of the area's are RvR area's, complete with PvE quests inside of them, for those of us who like the thrill's of watching over your shoulders.

So...I guess it comes down to, I would probably vote for the RP-Core, but if people wanted RP-Open, I can handle it.

(Holy long winded post Batman)

[Drakhon]

I started WoW on a PvP server (Mannoroth) and later started over on another PvP server (Dark Iron). Eventually I transferred to a PvE server, but that wasn't for gameplay reasons.

The only real negative I found was leveling on Dark Iron because it was already a mature server and we often ran into people much higher level than us, especially in hotspots like Stranglethorn. As an overall experience, leveling there was only occasionally frustrating and there were plenty of thrilling experiences that aren't really possible on the PvE ruleset.

Now, for WAR, every zone has an RvR lake - even in the Core ruleset - so it's not nearly as restrictive as WoW's PvE ruleset.

So I'm not really certain on Core vs Open.

For RP, I'm fine with it if it's along the lines of DAoC's RP servers: laid back and not the hardcore the-real-world-doesn't-exist type of RP that is present on many WoW RP servers, but still managing to have a generally higher level of maturity across the population than the non-RP servers.

[Gisli]

I think it is a given that this community would prefer to be on an official RP server of some type, given that is where most of us come from! (Though in answer to Drakhon, since we're going to help define that community in a big way, I assume that its going to be more like the DAOC model of being RP-friendly rather than RP-hardcore). What the RP community on some other sites (such as Open-WAR) is struggling with is the choice between taking the official RP core ruleset servers on the one hand, or trying to make an unofficial RP/open PvP ruleset server on the other. So my real question to this community is: Do we prefer core or open RvR ruleset? If we prefer core, then its just a matter of picking which RP/Core server to choose if they launch with multiple ones. But if this community decides it prefers Open RvR, then we have to pay a lot of attention to what the other RP communities who want Open RvR are going to pick for the "official unofficial" RP/Open RvR server.

And again, Warhammer core is very different from WoW standard rules. In Warhammer Core, there is lots of PvP. Its just (generally) restricted to the RvR "lake" areas. That will probably feel a lot different from DAOC. In DAOC, there is the big PvE area and the big RvR area. In Warhammer, they are interspersed a lot more, and with flagging, PvP can bleed out of the RvR lakes sometimes.

[ellyiana]

I say we should be on the roleplaying server. It's more of alot friendlier community that way:)

[Wolvan]

WoW RP servers where hardcore RP?

I play on Twisting Nether for the last 2 years mostly (RP PVP) and there is almost zero RPing outside of a few guild's. Otherwise, the RP is nonexistant. I like the RP from DAOC since they policed names and you could get people who are way out of line booted/censured. ie Public channels are light RP/in game info, private channels are what ever you want. While respecting other's in the private channels.

[Isak]

I'm enjoying the "Core" rules. I enjoy not having to worry about getting ganked if I don't want to. If I want to RvR/PvP each tier has the RvR lakes and scenarios.

Open RvR sounds a lot like WoW PvP with the exception of you don't have people 12+ levels higher than you coming by to camp you mercilessly, they are just <= 10 levels ahead of you.

Also it seems that as you reach tier 4 those RvR lakes begin dominating the zones

My observation is that in the long run Open v Core isn't going to matter. It will matter the first couple of months, but once the bulk of the population hits tier 4 the earlier tiers will have emptied out(Even with Mythic claiming that they still matter).

So the question is more about community then actual rules, and it's not so much the community you start with but the one you can build. The RP-servers for whatever reason seem to have players that are more open to interacting with the community at large then just within their own guild/friends.

[Drakhon]

WoW RP servers where hardcore RP?

I should, perhaps, amend the comment to be "some" rather than "most" WoW RP servers. I admit to not spending much time there, but that's the experience I had.

[Tirium]

I say you lot should go RP ;)

Also, my understanding is Core Ruleset for WAR = PvP Server for WoW. You aren't flagged in your territory, you're auto-flagged in contested/enemy territory.

This is different from open-RvR, where you're flagged, period, end of discussion.

Plus, with RP servers, I suspect if a Warrior Priest stepped on a Chosen's toes, baldy isn't going to apologize and skamper off :P

[stroadt]

One thing I wish we would have is that for those who do want the danger of engaging in pvp without expecting it, is that there would be places to level where you were rvr flagged, like the frontiers were. Not sure if that will be an option, though.

Each tier has areas dedicated for RvR combat, regardless of ruleset. So, that would be one option for the adventure seekers.

Another would be to leave your /pvp flag on while you level in the PvE zones.

And yet another would be to go level in the enemy's PvE zones (likely lacks quests, but grinding would be viable). That would surely get you some action. :p

Either of those options would leave yourself open for combat. And, this is supported by the core ruleset.

And, I should have stated in my original post that Rune seems to prefer Core-RP from our server poll, not just the default core ruleset.

Personally, I don't want to see Ipwndjoo lolerskates the Dwarf Enginner running around, and I have fond memories from Percival.

[Drakhon]

Also, my understanding is Core Ruleset for WAR = PvP Server for WoW. You aren't flagged in your territory, you're auto-flagged in contested/enemy territory.

I suppose you could look at it that way, but the division occurs below the zone level in WAR. Every zone has areas of each of the three types rather than each zone being limited to only one type. The better analogy is that Open is like PvP with the peace-mode Cities being the only safe zones.

[Vaskl]

Core Rp.
I don't want to be killed by PWNZU or Roflcoptor

[Overking]

"Core Rp.
I don't want to be killed by PWNZU or Roflcoptor"

But that was going to be the name of my Shaman: Pwnzu Roflcopter.

Damn...back to the drawing board.

[LeMieux]

As long as you don't steal my Shaman's name, 'Gah WtF'. ;D

[Cillbo]

So my real question to this community is: Do we prefer core or open RvR ruleset?

Core

I think it will offer the best for everyone. A more "Open RvR" minded person can just flag for RvR and go.

[Boltinheigmer]

Rp Core

Rp, in daoc were good communities and it policies names and random banter in general chats.

Core, Sometimes I just want to pve and relax.

At times I enjoy ganking and hunting gankers down but really sometimes I just wanna relax.

[Matael]

RP Core works for me. For some reason I just loathe names like pewpewipwnedurmom and legolaaaaas.

[Asborjn]

I would prefer RP Core

[Slaight]

RP Core gets my vote. My first WoW char was on a PvP server and at launch once i hit STV it was horrible. I also like having the option of not having to worry about more then the mobs around me sometimes. And as a Zealot (assuming that's what i'll play) if someone caught me fighting a mob it would be certain death.

As for the RP, it's for obvious reasons.

[Kestrel_Trebor]

Not a member of your guild-to-be, but coming to play on the server where Percivalians end up, so just throwing my 2 cents in ;)

The only thing about the "CORE" ruleset that bugs me is the fact that you can end up PvEing near an enemy. I think every time you encounter the enemy you should be forced to fight them, the whole flagging thing irks me and I always hated it in WoW.

But on the other hand, unless they are moving PvE content around on the "OPEN" ruleset servers, you can expect tons of necessary PvE content to be in the RvR areas. So it seems leveling there will be like the Dreds or WoW PvP servers. . . annoying at times.

The only way I can see this not being the case is if a lot of the necessary PvE content ends up being in the Capital cities or in instanced areas, and since I'm not in BETA I don't really know about this ;)

So -- just random thoughts, I guess -- I'm going to follow where all the familiar faces go anyway. Just gonna be weird cooperating with those faces as opposed to stabbing them with a nice PA :D

[Morbidd]

Ill vote for Core RP.

I dislike being jumped by Legolazzz (or one of 37 other variations of the name) while im PvEing

[Rardac]

Another voice crying out from the wilderness...

I'm all for RP Core. The server merge in DAoC was both great and terrible...great to have more victims, but man (and woman!) I hated seeing those stoopid names...:eek:

I think we're all committed to at least casual RPing, but even light-hearted/low-level RPing just adds to the experience. Our guild used to run occasional RP raids just for the fun of it, which I miss.

As for Core vs. Open, I think I agree with everyone here that sometimes you just don't want to be looking over your shoulder while leveling...

[Llnk]

As long as the "roleplaying" servers do not mean i have to talk like a goblin or a orc all the time and can talk like a normal person then i have no beef with a RP server. I really wish they would make a Nod00d core server.

Most people who play on "roleplaying" servers do not play there for the roleplaying they play there to dodge a few of the d00ds.

[Calmat]

I like the core idea. Which ever servers you decide will be fine with me.

[Antiochene]

I might be playing and I might not but my vote is for RP Core.

[Wazdakka]

Core

I think it will offer the best for everyone. A more "Open RvR" minded person can just flag for RvR and go.


RP Core here.

[Wazdakka]

I would also like us to go for one of the preorder servers if possible. In addition to the fact that I want to use my preorder bonus to grab my name, I also suspect that those will be hi-pop servers in he long run.

[Athelstaine]

Vote RP-Core as well.

[Tinnel]

RP-Core

One of the things I truly loved about DAOC was the idea that I didn't HAVE to pvp if I didn't want to.

One thing I think needs more discussion is what server? What happens if the server is full?

Everyone from mid/perc who went to WoW at release knows what I am talking about. I think that changing servers was the biggest issue splitting up the community.

My vote would be for Gisli to make that decision. And if he feels there is a need for a server change, then he makes that decision as well. The hard part would be getting everyone to follow. He did it in DAOC, I'm confident he could do it in this case :)

(looking for the emoticon of throwing Gisli under the bus):whistling1:

[Overking]

I second throwing Gisli under the bus!!!!! :lol:

What am I seconding about?

[stroadt]

Healer Bait!!! ... err... I mean... Tinnel!!! :wub:

[Kermul]

I like the Core... but I will go to were ever the Ravens go