PDA

View Full Version : Why i am excited for Warhammer!



Deliviss
08-17-2008, 03:56 PM
This is a longish post but i hope it will ressonate with the old DAoCers...



It has been many years since we assembled together in the battlefields of DAoC’s RvR zones. Most of us remember those times as the best gaming experiences we ever had. The level of cooperation, organization, leadership, social cohesion, and realm pride were orders of magnitude higher than any game has been able to produce before or since DAoC.

Since then we have been searching and waiting patiently for another game to come along to recreate that gaming experience. So far none has come even close. Some of us have been playing World of Warcraft in the meantime. The trouble is that World of Warcraft calls itself an MMO – it is not. MMOs before WoW were not quite mainstream; I remember having to explain to most non-MMO PC gamers what an MMO was. WoW made MMOs mainstream and it became the standard on which most future MMOs would be based. The trouble was it was not really an MMO game.

WoW is basically battle.net 2.0. When you log onto battle.net you enter a chat room with a bunch of people and you have a name tag with an icon. When you log onto WoW you enter a large animated 3D chat room (like Orgrimmar) with a name tag and a 3D avatar. If you want to play a game on battle.net you enter one with just you and a small group of friends where no one can disturb you while you play in an instance of a certain map while many other small isolated groups of people are playing on in their own instance of it. When you want to play a game in WoW you do the same thing; bring 4-24 of your friends along into an instance of a map isolated from everyone else on the server. If WoW is an MMO then Warcraft 3 on battle.net is an MMO.

Just to be clear, WoW is an incredibly designed, amazing game. It just isn’t an MMO. More importantly because it masquerades as one and is so successful every gaming company looking to make an MMO tends to follow their model, making everything instanced. Furthermore, since it is the game that popularized the genre and brought it to the mainstream, most MMO players think of WoW as the definition of an MMO rather than the game that destroyed the original concept, which was an open ended, socially emergent, massively multiplayer game.

Those of us who played MMOs before WoW, especially DAoC, have extreme painful nostaligia for the days when a single recognized leader could signal a Call to Arms and everyone would glady drop whatever they were doing to defend a keep or relic - not for purely personal gain but for the good of the realm. We miss the days when the sort of dubious characters one sees in WoW on a regular basis – immature, arrogant, obnoxious, egotistical, racist, homophobic, misogynistic, loud mouthed, petulant pricks (is that an exhaustive list?) - did not and indeed could not exist in an MMO game because the game mechanics enforced social cohesion to such a degree that made behavior like that impossible. Anyone behaving like an asshole in DAoC would immediately be unable to accomplish any objectives in the game, they could not come to raids, or get any help in PvP either because they had to be in good standing with the community. We miss the days where virtually every top level person knew every other top level person, every guild leader knew every other guild leader and would be constant cooperation to pursue the goals and needs of the realm as a whole.

I hope that Warhammer does bring back that intense social solidarity that defined our DAoC experience. We have been waiting patiently for long enough. It is interesting too that a game like WoW is a better game in almost all objective measures compared to DAoC. WoW has much better class balance, better interfacing, and so on. Yet everyone I know who has played DAoC with us would give up any game, no matter how good it was if they could get a game that was horrible in all aspects except that it had a) a DAoC style social system, and b) meaningful RvR.

I must say it is also rather romantic that hundreds us from our old server liked our time in DAoC so much that we are trying to reassemble after many years of quietly waiting.

Galantus
08-17-2008, 05:20 PM
Thx for the nostalgic trip Dev. I agree with you that daoc captured something that I haven't found in any other game, mmo or not. You've probably heard the expression about a smaller player in a sport playing "bigger than his physical size." It's a comment on the intangibles that he brings to the game. You can't really objectify it. Well daoc was that game. It's finite world often felt like something huge that you could never completely conquer. It played like an even bigger game than it was. I especially agree with your final statement. The social system and the RvR are probably the two biggest factors in setting daoc apart. I've also been patient and actually have been away from gaming for about a year. I left daoc and took a break, knowing that nothing else would scratch that itch. Now I'm getting ready to come back. And I've got a good feeling about what's ahead. :)

Aoann
08-17-2008, 08:31 PM
I think it will be different but the same.

Lebbrin
08-17-2008, 10:08 PM
/agree

Wow, well said Deliviss. That is exactly why I am coming back. I left DAOC more because the community left and I remained a lowly farmer. It got boring.

I can't wait for the nights of "well, let's see what this will do?" Wipe "Ok, then let's try this..." Wipe "Ok, now..."

Anyway, it's the fact that the 'family' will be back in the game.

Lebbrin

Aoann
08-17-2008, 10:18 PM
I hope that people are open to the new ideas presented in this game. It will not be DAoC. We are bringing the community to this game but I don't think it was designed to create community as DAoC seemed to. It is not another WoW knock off either (imo). New leaders will be born, old leaders will continue if they choose to adjust. I hope that people are not getting their expectations up to be horribly disappointed. I am hoping that we can have fun with our old and new friends! We will probably be grouping with some realm enemies who are now are friends and our friends maybe our realm enemies. Family is what you make of it regardless of the game. I remember the fondness of DAoC and hope to create more fun times in War! I am not trying to burst anyone's bubble. I am just trying to remain realistic as usual!

May the WAAGH be with you.

ellyiana
08-17-2008, 10:20 PM
hi deliviss good to see you:)

Wolvan
08-17-2008, 10:37 PM
Also, remember the community that was later in NF I don't think was the same as we had in the first 2-3 years of the game. But I'll take a partial good sense of community...which is better then WoW's or any of the other game's zero community.

Aoann
08-17-2008, 10:44 PM
Also, remember the community that was later in NF I don't think was the same as we had in the first 2-3 years of the game. But I'll take a partial good sense of community...which is better then WoW's or any of the other game's zero community.

It is of my opinion that the good members left early but the really really good (stubborn) members stayed late. I am truly honored to have run with my brothers and sisters and gladly missed the majority of major drama. :D

Gisli
08-17-2008, 11:07 PM
There certainly was drama early on. ;) I learned an awful lot from those early years... mostly about what does and doesn't matter in the long run. But then, I also learned a lot from my six month in WoW as well. I hope that we'll all be coming into this game with certain types of mistakes out of our system. :)

Deliviss
08-17-2008, 11:51 PM
I started playing MMOs about 8ish years ago when i was 14 years old, i certainly made my share of mistakes and learned a lot, both about playing and leading.

I do expect this game to be different. I think i have a pretty good conceptual handle on what sorts of game mechanics create what sort of communities. Warhammer does not have exactly the sort of mechanics that would give rise to exactly what we had in DAoC, but one thing is certain - no other game is coming anywhere near as close.

Deliviss
08-18-2008, 12:55 AM
hi deliviss good to see you:)

/hug!!!

Hey Elly, how all is well!

My name only has one S in it, but apparantly i cant remember the password i used for my Delivis account here..:(

Morbidd
08-18-2008, 04:58 AM
Everything Deliviss said
I dont have the wordsmithing skills of you all to make a nice post like that, but it sums up exactly how I feel about Warhammer.
I want the sense of community back
I want RvR to mean something other than a point grind for epics
I want teamwork back
I want the 3.5 years I played WoW back

ellyiana
08-18-2008, 08:23 AM
/hug!!!

Hey Elly, how all is well!

My name only has one S in it, but apparantly i cant remember the password i used for my Delivis account here..:(

Yeah I figure it seem wierd at first. thanks I'll remeber thta:)

ScarDar
08-18-2008, 10:35 AM
Yeah, if I remember right he actually wanted the name Devil or Devilis but for some reason it failed Mythic's RP standard. I can finally change my main's named from being one I hate (Darlini) to one I like (Scar*, or for you SQL freaks Scar%). I was Scarlete forever in WoW as a druid.

Cron
08-18-2008, 02:24 PM
Agreed Deliviss. Well put.

Cron
"Strength and Honor"

Deliviss
08-19-2008, 02:23 PM
Yeah, if I remember right he actually wanted the name Devil or Devilis but for some reason it failed Mythic's RP standard. I can finally change my main's named from being one I hate (Darlini) to one I like (Scar*, or for you SQL freaks Scar%). I was Scarlete forever in WoW as a druid.

My original name was something liek Derilict, i dont remember exactly, but apparantly that was against the NDA because it is a refference to a fashion line in a Ben Stiller movie...who knew?! I remember being mad when they changed by name but i quite like Delivis, and has been my name for many games and many years.

EKi
08-20-2008, 08:12 PM
To respond to your original post Deliviss id say, from what i understand from the game, is that you are going to be served in Warhammer.

Why ? purely because of game design and how Mythic thought their game.
Who im I to say so ? well its my job to design tripple-A games and ive shipped a few, not that i understand better everything but i guess i got a very methodical approach when it comes to game design.

Basicaly the team created a context for war, the whole global interference with the balance between destruction and order is a global system supporting the server community actions.

There is no trick to it, no hidden rules but pure accomplishement per players and mostly guild actions. You either get organised and form A single team as a realm or you ll get crushed and plundered !
This will be pretty much the same thing we all found in DAoC exept that now the system support it fully and the players are rewarded for it.Whats nice though is that they added public quest even for the plundered to participate when dark times hits them, so its not punishing and actualy could be very well rewarding (balance will tell).

I like if not agree with your perception of WoW, i started myself with EQ1 and yes i agree that instances killed the MMO factor in this game. In EQ1 you had to participate into the comunity even as a leading guild to be able and follow a certain callendar for raiding....

I will see you on the battlefield and on my first release kill i will celebrate the return of the MMO genre, because WAR is definitly part of it.

cheers

Charisma
08-26-2008, 09:28 AM
Nice to see you Deliviss. Nice to see some friendly names among the posters. I too can not wait till the game starts and we find that comradere we lost a game or 2 back.
Have to say hi to Elliyana, Wolvan, and Gisli. All people I played with back in DAoC and even some from WoW.
Hopefully we can get together in open beta . I did not get to play much of closed do to some health resons. I should be up and ready to play for release and dabble in open beta.

See you Percivites later

Syluna
08-26-2008, 05:47 PM
Great post!

Just look at the names posting in this forum - it reads like a thread from Grambo's warroom circa 2003.

It amazes me to see all of us coming back together after so many years - I'm fairly confident that this is going to be the DaoC of the next generation, and we will be playing together for many years to come.

(Until Warhammer - Trials of Atlantis, of course hehehe)

Deliviss
08-26-2008, 05:57 PM
/wave

Hi Charisma and Syluna, two more names i recognize from the old days..:)

Elsebet
08-27-2008, 01:17 PM
DAoC was only my second MMO, EQ was my first. I'm sure it was an early MMO for a lot of other players considering the limited market at the time. There are a lot more players in the space now and that will have an impact on the community compared to the early days of Percival.

I don't believe there will be any comparisons as far as immersion goes. When I started DAoC on Christmas Day in 2001, I just adored the Midgard environment and marveled at the use of Norse lore and vocabulary. I doubt that initial rush of my first death out in the frontier at the hands of an infiltrator 5 levels my senior will ever be replicated in WAR or any other game. I welcomed anyone into a group and never really understood the concept of people "sucking" unless they simply went afk or fell asleep, which was amusing back then.

I'm certain I'm not entirely alone in the fact that when I look back on how I played DAoC I think to myself "Wow, I was SO dumb!". For example, if I recall correctly I only had keybindings set for numbers 1-0 and I actually REACHED for numbers 6-0 with my left hand. I also don't believe I had any of my cooldown abilities hotkeyed out of fear I'd misfire them, so I (gasp) clicked on them. I didn't use mouselook. WoV never used voice chat in DAoC.

These are things which are second nature to me now after a few years of raiding/pvp'ing in other games. Every ability of mine is hotkeyed (QETGVC with alt/shift bound to my mouse side buttons) around my movement keys (WASD) with macros when needed. I click on very little and use mouselook for movement. Ventrilo is a MUST, grouping feels horrible without it. After WoW I am wary of grouping with strangers and ever watching how they operate.

I think it will be really interesting to see how competitive we and others are now. :)

wgrant
08-27-2008, 06:30 PM
I have to admit I am putting a fair amount of faith in this game that it will recreate to whatever degree possible, the experience I had in DAOC. I don't expect a perfect recreation, but some of the same feeling would be wonderful. I prized the community on Percival, particularly Percival/Midgard and I earnestly hope we can get some of the same community spirit happening in this game. I am very heartened to see that the old Perc veterans are organized to enter this new world as a group and I hope we can make a good go of it.

No other game that I have tried has achieved the same level of community and cooperation as DAOC. SWG (over 3 years), Vanguard, COH/V (still playing after 3.5 years or so), WOW(lasted a few weeks), AOC (lasted a few hours), all of them had problems of some sort. Overall I would have to say COH/V has been the best of those games that I have tried, but while I am part of a strong Supergroup of RL friends, it has zero overall community to speak of.

I will be wanting to join a guild once we settle on a server of course. is there a list of the guilds that are forming somewhere here on the forums? I spent most of my time in Percival Midgard as part of Fist of the North although I was also in Seventh Legion and a few smaller guilds (at the start). I think I was even briefly part of Gisli's guild (as Sneev the SM) before I quit playing DAOC :)

I am hoping to pull my friends from the Victors (http://www.victors.ca) into WAR when I arrive. If that happens we will likely all be seeking to join the same guild if we can find one - most of them are veterans of Percival, although not all Midgarders there are a few former Albs as well :P

Deliviss
08-27-2008, 06:36 PM
Oh yes, wgrant, there is a sticky at the top of this forum called "cooperating guilds" that have all signed on to come to the same server as all of us.

Voltari
08-27-2008, 06:46 PM
I'm getting excited about Warhammer too. More so, after getting to play it this last weekend.