Green Skin Black Orc

[Isak]

Ripped from Mythic
[hr]
Black Orcs

Armed and armored to fight in the thick of melee as a warrior and tanker, the Black Orc matches physical hardiness with a down and dirty brawler?s fighting style that makes him the heart of any war band. With choppa and shield in hand, he can face down any foe unshaken. However, it is his unique approach to fighting that makes him as deadly with his fists as with either of those tools. He?ll knock you down so you can?t fight back, and then kick you while you?re down. There?s no honor among Greenskins, and there?s no such thing as a fair fight ? and that?s the way he likes it!

The Black Orc Specialty

The Black Orc?s fighting style might best be described as brawling. He attacks with all the tools available ? fists, feat, elbows, shoulders, and assorted other spiky bits, including weapons. His various attacks are designed to jar, disorient, or otherwise disable his enemy. Each of these conditions leaves the enemy vulnerable to yet more punishment. This comes in the form of other attacks which deliver additional effects based on the target?s condition. The Black Orc?s use of these tools revolves around the philosophy that the best defense is indeed a good offense.

Playing as a Black Orc

Combat for a Black Orc revolves around engaging and defeating enemies one at a time, while weathering the fire of their allies. As a front line fighter, the Black Orc is well equipped to withstand the attacks of his enemies. Though protected by shield and armor, and possessing a hearty constitution, his greatest strength lies in his ability to disable his primary opponent. His use of jarring blows and unexpected attacks allow the Black Orc to exploit the openings they create to reduce the enemy?s ability to fight back.

Fighting Black Orcs

When you fight a Black Orc it?s most important to know your enemy and his abilities. This allows you yo counter them and keep him from reaching the potential of his deadly power. He will always have the tools to engage you, so there?s little sense in trying to get around him. If you?re aware of his abilities ? especially the multiple attacks he can chain off of one another ? you can maneuver and break his chains, denying him maximum performance. Maneuverability, selective engagement, and an intimate knowledge of your enemy?s abilities are the keys to defeating the Black Orc.

The Black Orc Look

Fully armored in heavy armor (with lots of spikes)
Large very heavy shields (also with lots of spikes)
Choppas and great choppas (with spiky bits stuck on)

[Snapp]

This sounds like a class for me. :)
But I will check the Dark Elfs to see what they come up with there.

[Mackk]

This has "Mackk Twuckk" written all over it. ;D

[Senjak]

It's either this or the Chosen for me :) Anyone have good impressions in Beta so far? (NDA is dead!)

[Overking]

Well the Chosen is like a skald with better damage output and the Black Orc is a monster. Other can fill in better then I as I have only seen what they have done to other things. :lol:

[Torlan]

Cool part about the tanks on this game is you get like a 60 second buff or what ever the time was, that anyone behind you with in 30 yards gets protected. Meaning you will block for them as long as they are in your rear arc. This is a focus spell thing.

[Senjak]

Oooh, skaldy, thanks Pero. Chosen looks interesting, not sure if that will be my style but it's more appealing than the Blorc so far. Tipping the scales with armor, its back to perusing youtube for vids of Tier 4 Blorcs :p

[Syluna]

I played a Black Orc this weekend for the first time. I was a little miffed that they could only be male, but I heard good things about the class so I thought I'd try it.

I LOVED it. I usually hate playing tanks, but this was lots of fun. Played it up to 11 in one afternoon. Lots to do, very decent damage (a tank killing people in RvR?? yes!!!!) as well as the sheer fun of being able to charge into the casters and shrug off their spells all the while chopping them down. If you have a melee healer with you, backed up by a ranged healer, you are nigh unstoppable.

After talking to some people it appears that Black Orcs get even better at high levels when they really begin to soak up some damage. Their DPS stays mediocre, but it's enough to get kills in here and there, and their ability to block doorways, halls, and stairs makes them essential in keep defense and offense.

[Torlan]

This class also gets I believe 2 knock backs at higher levels if you go up the right mastery, so that is extremely helpful. Tank classes to me seem like a must, as the shield protection is so helpful when fighting players and when taking a keep the keep lord hits hella hard.

[Nastrand]

I am playing a Black Orc at release. I have played them mainly every chance I have gotten since 2007.

[IvarrWolfsong]

I am in love with the marauder and sorc, but Black Orc will be what I play in Open Beta I think. I want to give a tank a try.

[Boragar]

I am in love with the marauder and sorc, but Black Orc will be what I play in Open Beta I think. I want to give a tank a try.

It's fun! One of your first quests lets you ride a Orcapault too.

[IvarrWolfsong]

......C - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - O:mad:=|==>. . . . :eek:
......|
......|
-o--o-
orcapult........................................or c.................dorf

[Antiochene]

I prefer tank classes. My main in DAOC was a zerker. The only thing I hated is that they do not have much utility in keep defenses before the doors are down. Does the black orc suffer from this same problem?

[Drakhon]

I prefer tank classes. My main in DAOC was a zerker. The only thing I hated is that they do not have much utility in keep defenses before the doors are down. Does the black orc suffer from this same problem?

As a note, DAoC's Berserker would fall into the Melee DPS category in WAR rather than the Tank category. Comparing them to a Black Orc is not really the best.

To answer the question, though, melee classes do often have similar problems in sieges as they do in DAoC. Tanks can help with Guard and Hold The Line (at least), though, and MDPS get a Siege Ability at RR30 that allows them to use the postern doors on enemy-held keeps to get inside and mess some people up.

[Morethancaffine]

I prefer tank classes. My main in DAOC was a zerker. The only thing I hated is that they do not have much utility in keep defenses before the doors are down. Does the black orc suffer from this same problem?

Keep Seiges
Da Black Orc shines in seiges on da ram. We can takes more damage dan a Chosen Warrior. Plus we cans block oils dat is rainin down on us. (Me tink Chaos Warrior can do dis too.) If joo are nots one of da ones operatin da ram, joo can stand near its and blocks da oils. When da door go down joo are da furst in and joo takes da furst attacks ta distract da enemies.

If joo nots on da ram and joo nots blockin oil, joo can toss joor choppa at da gits on da wall sumtimes, or joo can operates anodder kinds of seige engine. Joo can also try ta intercept anyboddies dat try ta get inta da keeps or comes outta da keeps.

If joo can gets inta da keep through da back door, joo can mess peoples up inside likes Drakhon says.

Once joo insides, joo can tank ta keep lords and his buddies.

Keep Defense
Here joo shines on da oil. Pour all da oils joo can on da enemies. And keeps repairin da oil so dat joo can keeps pourin. :)

If joo can'ts pour da oil, joo can operate anodder siege engine frum on da walls or on da keeps. Joo can attacks anyboddies dat get inside da keeps through da back door, and joo cans run out ta harry da enemies too.

If da door goes down, joo can stand in da doorway and tries ta blocks da enemies frum gettin in, but dere gots ta be alots of tanks der 'cause sum of dem is gunna gets knocked back and dere gots ta be healers healin joo.

Der is lots of stuffs for joo ta do. If joo nots wanna do any of dis stuffs, don't play a Black Orcs. :D

[Elsebet]

Tanks here seem more about group utility than raw damage. Mike plays one and he rushes in to a fray and just harasses and snares people while the melee/ranged dps pick them off. He also switches guard to me and snares the offender if I'm being wailed on. The best tanks will be switching guard often in RvR - Zalere has been keeping it on Issi who is playing a DoK in open beta to boost his survivability.

I'm still not sure if a tank will be an MA over a melee/ranged dps though, Mike says he switches a lot in combat so he doesn't feel he'd be the best choice. Thoughts?

[Qizarek]

...Thoughts?

It's a Blackskin Orc...I don't think they have many thoughts at all. ;)

[Drakhon]

I'm still not sure if a tank will be an MA over a melee/ranged dps though, Mike says he switches a lot in combat so he doesn't feel he'd be the best choice. Thoughts?

A well-played Tank is a poor choice for MA for this reason. Your best bet is going to be Ranged DPS as Melee DPS generally can't have as much of a feel for the tactical situation as those at range and Healers obviously have their own things to focus on.

[Rardac]

It's a Blackskin Orc...I don't think they have many thoughts at all. ;)

Just point me in the right direction with someone to kill at the end, that's all I ask! :D

[Morethancaffine]

Tanks here seem more about group utility than raw damage. Mike plays one and he rushes in to a fray and just harasses and snares people while the melee/ranged dps pick them off. He also switches guard to me and snares the offender if I'm being wailed on. The best tanks will be switching guard often in RvR - Zalere has been keeping it on Issi who is playing a DoK in open beta to boost his survivability.

I'm still not sure if a tank will be an MA over a melee/ranged dps though, Mike says he switches a lot in combat so he doesn't feel he'd be the best choice. Thoughts?

Well, tanks is tanks is tanks. Dey do da same ting in dis game as dey do in most games really. As far as damage goes, tanks nevur been da big damage dealers, even da ones dat specialize in offense.

Me will run inta da fray sumtimes too, buts me lookin fer da targets dat me can takes down as a tank. Me go fer Melee DPS and Ranged DPS and chops dem ups. Buts, when me see a really damaged enemies no matter dere class, me switch targets and goes aftur dem. Bettur ta haves 1 dead enemies and 1 fully alives enemies dan 2 enemies at half health. :)

Me always try ta snare tanks and Melee DPS when dey near me, and me will go out of me way ta snare a healer. If joo beatin on a healer, da healer healing demselves, and nots dere friends.

When dere is a healer nears me, me will puts me guard on dem. But, me usually has it on da healers who be me friends and are in me groups, cause me know dey gunna be close ta me, and me ta dem. Me will switch me guard ta udder peoples in da group as needed. Me usually only puts me guard on sumone outside me groups when dere is not a healer in me group, or none of de healers in me group are near me, and dere is anodder healer near me dat does needs it.

As far as bein da MA, a tanks can do it just fines, buts dey gots ta know dat dey are da MA. When me is MA me finds me does nots switch targets as much and me is more choosey abouts da targets me picks. Me rely on udder peoples ta peel aggro and off-tank a bits more if me is MA. When me is nots MA, me is switchin targets all de times and tryin ta grabs aggro in PvE and just makes da enemies lifes miserable in RvR. So while a tanks can be da MA, and a putry good one if dey know dey are MA, dey are probably not da best choice. Wat is da best choice? Me nots know really.

[Radaghast]

I tried a black orc last night and I gotta say it was pretty fun.

The way they move really gives you a feeling of a lumbering brute.

I did not even get all the way to level 10, but am actually considering rolling one already.

[Gorgaz]

I'll also be playing a 'Da Toughest Blorc come release. I'm a mean, green fightin' machine!

Playing during the open beta I was really amazed by just how defensive a blorc could be. By level 17 I had the potential (tactic) to have a 39% chance to block any attack (remember, blocks in this game prevent melee, ranged, AND spells) 55% armor mitigation, and great resists too. Tanked a keep lord + an order guy or two with only one healer focusing me. Add in the two knockbacks from another Toughest tactic and the silence on a 20 sec cooldown and I can't imagine what kind of monster this guy'd be to go up against in RvR. He doesn't do that great of damage, but he isn't supposed to; he's supposed to be a pain in the neck for the peeps trying to get at your healers.

[Steingrimr]

From what little I played Black Orc (up to 12 or 13) I definitely got the same impression you did, Gorgaz. I'm glad to see that holds true up to the level you got.

My idea is also to be the biggest, most annoying healer protector ever. I was thinking of going:

http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=5#14:0:11:0:0:0:25
http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=5#10:0:15:0:0:0:25

Without having real world experience, I can only theorycraft, but I think I like the first one better. The morale ability in Da'Toughest seems really nice, but would I rather have the morale ability that I can use occassionally, or the extra damage and abilities from going higher in Da'Brawler?

From the description of the trees, you'd think Da'Boss would be the way we'd want to go, but I don't see any compelling reason to go up that tree. The knockback tactic in Da'Toughest is a must have for us.

[Morethancaffine]

Me tinks it da way joo looks at it Steingrimr. (Hulloz, by da way, me 'member joo frum DAoC.)

Dis jus me persunal view, me nots trying ta influence joor decision, buts a tank is defensive. Me likes dat da tanks have da option of goin offensive, but a tanks nevur gunna be a real good damage dealer and dey gives up sum defensive tings ta go offensive. Me figure dat if da point of da tank is ta be a tank, den go full defense.

Me know sum peoples will argue dat da best defense is a good offense, buts a tanks not built fer offense really. So me figure dat da tanks should leaves da real damage dealin ta da DPS crowd and protects da healers furst and da DPS peoples secund.

So me gunna go all da way up da Path of da Toughest and puts da rest of me points inta da Path of da Boss. Sure me wills nots do as much damage dis ways, buts me becums nigh unstoppable and gives lots of defensive bonuses ta da whole group.

Me nots gunna holds it agains any tanks dat go offensive, dat dere choice, and dey makes da game more spicy, buts ta me, a tanks is a tanks, and if dey can'ts protect peoples good, why dey play a tanks? Just me thoughs.

[Steingrimr]

Hello Gaath, always nice to see old faces!

I completely agree with your opinion about tanks focusing on their role and not being damage dealers.

Here are my thoughts on the specs:

Da'Boss offers some nice abilities; not being detaunted, armor increase for group mates, Big Swing snare/disorient, group AP buff, aoe shout, and the aoe morale damage.

The snare/disorient on Big Swing and the group AP buff seem to be really nice, but the other tools don't really seem to help me keep squishies alive. One could make a case for the armor boost, but will 500 armor really help a cloth casters that much? Would they be better served by me being able to do some moderate damage to the attacker?

The thing I like the most is that there are a wide variety of options for playstyles and personal preference. In PvP, I just don't see a lot of people attacking me over a squishy, so raising my defense only has limited application. I feel more comfortable picking up tools that help the squishies get away (snares and knockbacks) and tools that help me put more pressure on the attacker by dealing damage to them. If my own DPS crew is harassing their healer, and I'm damaging an attacker, something will have to give.

Again, I really like the depth of the options! Good stuff.

[Morethancaffine]

The snare/disorient on Big Swing and the group AP buff seem to be really nice, but the other tools don't really seem to help me keep squishies alive. One could make a case for the armor boost, but will 500 armor really help a cloth casters that much? Would they be better served by me being able to do some moderate damage to the attacker?

The thing I like the most is that there are a wide variety of options for playstyles and personal preference. In PvP, I just don't see a lot of people attacking me over a squishy, so raising my defense only has limited application. I feel more comfortable picking up tools that help the squishies get away (snares and knockbacks) and tools that help me put more pressure on the attacker by dealing damage to them. If my own DPS crew is harassing their healer, and I'm damaging an attacker, something will have to give.


Dis all true, but tanks in WAR has more dan one role. We do da best dat we cans ta help protect da squishies, (me likes dat names), buts when it cums down ta its, we needs sumptin ta stops dat attack. Killin da enemies is one way. Knockin dem downs, or backs, is anodder way. Buts dey gunna attacks da squishy no mattah wat we does, and we does da best we cans wit wat we gots, be it offensive or defensive. So in da small scale battuls, likes scenarios, it probalby best ta have both offensive and defensive tanks. Dat way we gets da strenghts of both.

Our udder role is on da keeps. Stayin alives on da ram needs lots of health and defense. Staying alives while pourin oil, needs health and defense. Blockin enemies frum comin through a door, needs health and defense. (If joo dead, joo no can blocks.) Tankin keep lords gunna needs lots of health and defense. Dis stuffs mights not helps individual squishies, but it help da realm as a whole, and defensive tanks gunna do its bettur dan offensive tanks by dere vury nature.

[Syluna]

As an offensive tank, I must say that Black Orc down the brawlin' path with a nice 2 hander can do significant damage. I templated to 31 back in beta, and was just tearing squishies to pieces. It was quite fun.

You'll never be able to take another tank down, and you'll have problems with war priests, but every bright wizard and archmage better run as you shrug off their spells as you charge at them like a blood crazed barbarian and then hack them into little bits.

It's quite a fun class.

[Morethancaffine]

As an offensive tank, I must say that Black Orc down the brawlin' path with a nice 2 hander can do significant damage. I templated to 31 back in beta, and was just tearing squishies to pieces. It was quite fun.

You'll never be able to take another tank down, and you'll have problems with war priests, but every bright wizard and archmage better run as you shrug off their spells as you charge at them like a blood crazed barbarian and then hack them into little bits.

It's quite a fun class.

Hehe, dis true even of a defensive tanks. Me went full defense backs durin da levul 31 ta 40 testin, me woulds tear ups Melee DPS and Ranged DPS. Me woulds outlast udder tanks in long battuls, but da healers wuz me biggest problems.

[Morethancaffine]

Woah! Me just founds out sumptin dat gunn change da way dat joo spec. Joo gets 25 total points ta spec joor mastery, rights? Joo can spends 15 points ta go all da ways up da tree, BUTS, joo also haves ta buy da Abilities and Tactics in dose trees.

So if joo use 15 points ta go all da way ups a tree, ta haves all da abilities and tactics in dat tree, joo gots ta puts an additional 7 points inta its, one fer each Ability and Tactic.

Dat uses a total of 22 points leavin joo wit 3 points ta puts in udder trees. Me still gunna go ups Da Toughest tree and me plan on buyin everting, but me nots sure if dose last 3 points woulds be more effective in Da Brawler tree or in Da Boss tree. Me gots ta tinks abouts dat sum more.

[Steingrimr]

Whoa. I didn't know that. Thanks for bringing that up! That totally changes the way this will work. Thanks for the heads up!

Edit: Wow, talk about using the builder on WARDB all wrong. :blush:

[Gisli]

A couple of things to consider.

1) It would be rather unusual for a person to pick all of the abilities, morales, and tactics in a given tree. You should NOT think that just because you are heavily spec'ed in a given tree, that you would or should pick all of the abilities. In fact, it is quite reasonable to pick none of them.

2) I'm not sure what the exact number is. I think Sindrak made a post detailing this. But I'm certain its more that 25. There are several for getting high realm rank. I think its more like 30 or so. Possibly the typical person won't see that though, depending on realm rank leveling goes.

[Morethancaffine]

A couple of things to consider.

1) It would be rather unusual for a person to pick all of the abilities, morales, and tactics in a given tree. You should NOT think that just because you are heavily spec'ed in a given tree, that you would or should pick all of the abilities. In fact, it is quite reasonable to pick none of them.

*Blink blink* Wat joo smokin Gisli? :D Me woulds find it real odds dat sumone would go all de way ups a tree as dere main mastery and nots pick up sum of da tingys. It a persunal choice of course, buts me woulds not see da points of nots pickin at least sum of dem ups. Now granteds, me is tinking along da line of a Black Orc charactur, udder classes may be differents in dis regards.


2) I'm not sure what the exact number is. I think Sindrak made a post detailing this. But I'm certain its more that 25. There are several for getting high realm rank. I think its more like 30 or so. Possibly the typical person won't see that though, depending on realm rank leveling goes.

Ohh, me woulds like dis. Gives more resuns ta RvR. Likes we woulds need any :D WAAAAAGH!!

[Gisli]

Well, its not a slam-dunk argument that all of the abilities in the mastery lines are actually useful. Typically, only a couple really are worthwhile. Remember that every mastery ability you pick translates into something like a 2% reduction in every ability in whatever line that you otherwise would have spent that point.

[Steingrimr]

So here's what I'm thinking:

http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=5#9:640:11:2592:0:0:25:1716:1712:73 4:739:14120:14160::608:1722:610:613

I'm trying hard to understand why I'd want to use sword/shield for defending squishies. Nothing in the game rewards me for being defensive in that role. As I see it, I want lots of snares, knockbacks, and knockdowns. Damage is a plus too. I'll leave the PvE tanking to someone more specced for it.

[Isak]

So here's what I'm thinking:

http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=5#9:640:11:2592:0:0:25:1716:1712:73 4:739:14120:14160::608:1722:610:613

I'm trying hard to understand why I'd want to use sword/shield for defending squishies. Nothing in the game rewards me for being defensive in that role. As I see it, I want lots of snares, knockbacks, and knockdowns. Damage is a plus too. I'll leave the PvE tanking to someone more specced for it.

The big thing with sword/shield is that block is the only thing that will stop melee, range, and spells.

[Morethancaffine]

Remember that every mastery ability you pick translates into something like a 2% reduction in every ability in whatever line that you otherwise would have spent that point.

Wat joo talking 'bout Gisli? No reallies, me nots heard dis. Is dere actually a reduction in udder abilities of udder non-specced trees, or a reduction in da potential of abilities in unspecced trees?

[Gisli]

Taking an ability generates an opportunity cost. If you don't take the ability, then you would have put that point into raising a mastery. You have to decide if a given ability is worth what you are giving up. I'm not saying don't take abilities. I'm just saying that you should not take abilities that you won't use.

[Morethancaffine]

Taking an ability generates an opportunity cost. If you don't take the ability, then you would have put that point into raising a mastery. You have to decide if a given ability is worth what you are giving up. I'm not saying don't take abilities. I'm just saying that you should not take abilities that you won't use.

Okies, me see wat joo are sayin now. Dere is nots an actual reduction in effectiveness of abilities in udder trees dan da one joo are masterin in. Buts, if joo nots put points into dose udder trees, den joo do nots get da bonuses associated wit dem, and thus, joo gets dis "opportunity cost", or a loss of opprotunity. Dat how me understoods it ta be at furst. Fer sum reason da way joo wuz explainin its wuz confusin me.

[Gisli]

Yes, sorry.

[Wolvan]

I played a BO at 31 in RvR. I specced heavily into the brawling tree. I took most of the abilities, but not the tactics (maybe took 1) as I felt the abilities where good and useful, but the tactics would not replace the base tactics I had.

Right now, I dont' think there is really enough benefit to speccing into the tanking tree for RvR. It does make you very tough vs melee opponents, but you give up to much useful stuff.

[Morethancaffine]

Right now, I dont' think there is really enough benefit to speccing into the tanking tree for RvR. It does make you very tough vs melee opponents, but you give up to much useful stuff.

Dis is not a criticism of joo Wolvan, but wat me find interestin is dat peoples are takin a narrower view of da role of da tank in RvR. Dey just focusing on da melee fighting.

Da melee fightin is only parts of wat da tanks do. Me list a lots of stuffs earlier in da thread dat tanks can do dat not melee related, likes ram operations, oil operations and repair, other seige operations. Tanks excell at dese things cause dey can takes lots of damage. Da defensive tanks is bettur suited for dese tings dan any udder charactur cause it so hard ta kills dem, dey can keeps doin dere jobs where udder charactuers, includin offensive tanks, woulds die.

But me ferget one big one, Standard Bearer. Joo wants joor standard bearer ta be da toughest git on da field so joo do nots lose joor banner. Da best choice fer dis is a defensive tanks.

Dis just me opinions, buts me just see da defensive tanks as da bettur all arounds spec cause it has more utilities dan just da melee fighting. Now, a offensive tanks can do all dese tings me talks abouts, and dey can prolly do dem wells, but nots as good as da defensive tanks.

As a defensive tanks, me may be givin ups sum offensive stuffs, but dat okies. Da benefits dat da defensive tanks give ta Guild and Realm outweights da ammounts of damage joo can do.

[Wolvan]

The only knockdown that Black Orcs get is in the brawling line. Knockdowns are very important in RvR. I had also specced a black orc to full tanking at level 21 and tanked some instances and at level 40 in beta. While they make you very tough damage taker it cripples you at damage. You do maybe 35-40% of the damage of a brawler spec with a 2h. And while your tougher, you don't really convey much of that protection to anybody your guarding. The brawler has more ways to protect a squishy (more damage so kill faster and knockdown/knockback) then the tank does. You have limited ability to buff the person your guarding, but its fairly insignificant IMO.

And yes, a tank spec would probably be the better standard bearer, but thats the only thing you would be really good at.

I really wish they added more defensive tanking abilities for RvR but they haven't. There is very little benefit to it currently.

*note* they have changed some stuff since I played in beta also. Even at my low level I noticed they have changed some of my abilities.

There is a role for an offensive tank spec toon. Leading the charge into the enemy lines and going after their healers or squishies forces the enemy on the defensive and trying to save their healers. Melee DPS is just to squishy to survive when several people are beating on them (aka enemy def tanks) but they black orc can hang. I've waded into groups of 5-6 same level order people solo and managed to kill 1-2 of them including their healer before they could focus me down. This is with no healing. A melee dps class would die to fast for this to happen. Being a real threat in the enemy back line keeps the pressure off of your lines and keeps you on the offensive, which is where you want to be.

I don't see how being tank spec really helps over brawler spec on siege abilities except when people pop out to take some swipes at you.

[Morethancaffine]

The only knockdown that Black Orcs get is in the brawling line. Knockdowns are very important in RvR. I had also specced a black orc to full tanking at level 21 and tanked some instances and at level 40 in beta. While they make you very tough damage taker it cripples you at damage. You do maybe 35-40% of the damage of a brawler spec with a 2h. And while your tougher, you don't really convey much of that protection to anybody your guarding. The brawler has more ways to protect a squishy (more damage so kill faster and knockdown/knockback) then the tank does. You have limited ability to buff the person your guarding, but its fairly insignificant IMO.

Dis still tinking alongs da line of melee. Me say agains, dis only one job dat da tanks has. If a persun choose ta specialize in offense, sure dey do wat joo talking abouts bettur dan da defensive tanks, but here da catch. Me almost nevur see a tanks wit a two handed weapons, me guessin offensive spec, defendin a squishy. Me see da tanks wit da two handed weapons running arounds and tryin ta kill da enemies, and me nots got a problem wit dat, it just wat me see.

Also, if joo goes defensive joo can gets 2 knockbacks, one on "Not in da Face" and one on "Right in da Jibblies". Me nots have knockdowns, joo rights, buts me nots need dem when me on a ram bashing down a door so da offensive tanks cans run inside da keep. Or when me on da oil killing da enemies as dey beatin on a door. Me guna live longur doin dis as a defensive tanks.


And yes, a tank spec would probably be the better standard bearer, but thats the only thing you would be really good at.

Ands runnin a ram, and porin oil, and runnin udder seige engines, and tankin keep lords. All bettur dan an offensive tanks fer da reasuns me already saids.


I really wish they added more defensive tanking abilities for RvR but they haven't. There is very little benefit to it currently.

Joo just thinkin melee agains, PvP as opposed ta RvR. PvP is playur versus playur, and dis jus peoples fightin peoples, and dis wat joo talkin abouts. RvR is realm versus realm and dis is nots just PvP, buts keeps and city seiges too, And dese mean seige engines, and me already saids why da defensive tanks is bettur dan an offensive tanks at dis. So in da straights PvP, offensive tanks prolly do bettur, in da RvR, da defensive tanks gunna do bettur. Da benefit of da defensive tanks is fer da realm, nots fer da individual, be dis individual joorself or a squishy.

[Morethancaffine]

There is a role for an offensive tank spec toon. Leading the charge into the enemy lines and going after their healers or squishies forces the enemy on the defensive and trying to save their healers. Melee DPS is just to squishy to survive when several people are beating on them (aka enemy def tanks) but they black orc can hang. I've waded into groups of 5-6 same level order people solo and managed to kill 1-2 of them including their healer before they could focus me down. This is with no healing. A melee dps class would die to fast for this to happen. Being a real threat in the enemy back line keeps the pressure off of your lines and keeps you on the offensive, which is where you want to be.

Me not saying dere nots a place fer da offensive tanks. Wat joo tanking abours is exactly dat place and it a good place ta be. Me saying dat offensive tanks and defensive tanks have different jobs. Offensive is prolly bettur in PvP. Defensive is bettur in RvR.


I don't see how being tank spec really helps over brawler spec on siege abilities except when people pop out to take some swipes at you.

Joo ever runs a ram? Joo takes nasty damages when joo runnin a ram and da oil pours ovah joo. Sumtimes joo nots always gets healed. Wit da abilities ta takes more damage, joo nots have ta gets healed as muches or as oftens.

Me been attacked by lots of enemies when me runnin all sorts of seige equipments. Cause, me defensive, dis lets me last longur runnin da engine.
Peoples not always pop out of da keeps ta attacks joo. Sumtimes reinforcements show ups frum behinds. Sumtimes joo are defendin on a wall and a half a dozun fire wizzies and shadow warriors target joo and lights joo ups. When joo lives longer, joo can keeps doing joor jobs.

[Wolvan]

All orcs get the siege abilities, they are core abilities. I've run seige and played a healer healing black orcs on siege with oil dropping on them.

And I think we are not exactly talking about the same thing.

For 1, you keep separating out pvp and rvr. Pvp is a part of RvR. Is it all of RvR? Like you said no.

Secondly, you are acting like I'm saying there is only 1 role for a black orc and that is 2h offensively. I'm not saying that. All I said is that currently (as of my most recent knowledge) is that the advantages to being tank specced in RvR are, in my opinion, much less then the advantages to being a brawler spec. I feel that as a brawler spec 2h I can better protect a healer then you can as a tank spec. I have played a black orc as a 2h brawler spec both as a offensive dps and as a healer protector. To me it seems that you believe the only viable black orc spec is as a tank. Right now, the extra mitigation that you gain as a tank spec is insignificant compared to what you lose from a brawler spec. A brawler spec can still throw on a shield and tank lords etc (I've done it).

I think a good warband will have some offensive and some defensive tanks. I really think only 1-2 defensive tanks per warband (24 people) is plenty, while there is room for more offensive tanks...1 per group and 1-2 extra. A brawler can do all the jobs that a defensive tank can with a small lose of efficieny, but the defensive tank isn't nearly as good doing some of the brawler's duties as a brawler is. The damage of a pure tank spec is SIGNIFICANTLY lower then a brawler spec.

Note, this is all my opinion from my expierence leveling and playing a BO in guild beta.

[Steingrimr]

I don't have a lot of experience playing Black Orc, nor do I have a lot of experience in RvR past Tier 1 so I'm confused (this happens often as those who know me best can attest too, sorry).

What abilities in Da'Toughest actually help keep me alive while I'm running a ram?

[Morethancaffine]

Okies, me gots apologies ta makes. Me sorries. :blush: Me has been operating under sum false infermation. Me had reads dat when joo puts points inta raisin joor "Da Toughest" mastery, it wuz givin joo a bonus on Wounds and Toughness, and dat when joo put points inta "Da Brawler, joo were gettin an extra bonus ta da base damage dat joo wuz doin, on top of da extra damage da abilities woulds do. Dis wuz shapin me opinion on da mattur. So me wuz under da impression dat by puttin points inta "Da Toughest", da defensive tanks woulds be a lots more tougher dan dey would be if dey specced "Da Brawler".

Steingrimr's question...

What abilities in Da'Toughest actually help keep me alive while I'm running a ram? ...mades me try ta find whar I reads dat puttin points inta "Da Toughest" woulds raise joor Wounds and Toughness. Me wuz nots able ta finds it again and me just nots member whar me reads it. So, me go ta da wardb.com and me is seein dat wat I though wuz happenin wuz nots da case. When joo raisin da points in da tree it raises da damage of da abilities, both da core ones and da ones joo can purchase, in dat tree and dat it.

So me entire arguments has ta be thrown outs da winda.

Me gunna have ta go back and completely rethink how me wanna spec nows. Buts me is glad me had dis discussion cause it make me see dat wat I wuz tinking was wrongs.

[Steingrimr]

I've certainly learned a lot from this thread, it's been great having some good dialogue about the classes. A lot of us didn't get to do play a whole lot during the PW and the OB so I really don't know a lot of how these systems work. It's great to hear folks experiences.

My biggest "complaint" (if you can call it that) is I don't seem to be rewarded by using a shield in PvP if I want to protect someone. I can see using a shield if I'm running a ram, standing a shield wall, or something else where I know I will be attacked. I can definately see the benefit of having some defensive talents for tanking guards and Keep Lords.

That being said, I feel like a mix of Da'Toughest and Da'Brawler are the best fit for what I want to accomplish.

[Wolvan]

Stein,

Correct. There is very little benefit to using a shield in RvR most of the time. It does open some abilities that are sheild only (armor buff etc) but then you lose your great weapon only rvr abilities.

We where pushing for more shield-tank RvR type abilities but didn't get them. Maybe in the future. The lack of ability to swap between sword/board and 2h is also limiting and makes you chose before the fight what weapon you want.

[Zalere]

I also agree that Black Orcs really shine with a shield. I don't have the intentions of going out and racking up killing blows. I'm built for survivability which is tremendously higher wielding a shield.

I RvR with the purpose of protecting teammates and harassing the other team. I can charge into a group of enemies and spread them out so DPS can pick off the ones that stray. I draw a lot of fire this way too - fire that I could not withstand not wearing a shield. I end up blocking quite a few fireballs and arrows.

I think 2h wielding Black Orcs are a force for sure, but I think the true potential lies defensively. I will leave all the killin' to our DPS machines while I draw ire and protect my squishies. Not to mention, DPS is still respectable even using sword and board.

[Senjak]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Hold the Line is the only shield only care ability tanks get, yar? Core wise that is, there are probably some in the masteries. It's nice to be able to use Guard while wielding a 2Hander but it doesnt make as much sense. Doesnt seem to be as much that the shield can do for others, but personal defense is immense with it.

Does anyone know if a shield can block damage taken from Guarding another?

[Wodin]

BO's get the the runts, which is an ability that takes half the damage for the guarded person (or thing).

[Wolvan]

Sheild makes zero difference in the BO guard ability (save da runts or such). IMO from RvRing with a level 1-21 and a level 30 BO your dps is SIGNIFICANTLY lower with a shield/sword then a 2h.

Hold the line is questionable use IMO in RvR. Hopefully we can develop something.

If they made the guard abilties shield required, then you would have a real reason to use one. And a 2h isn't all about killing blows that some people seem to think. If I'm guarding a healer etc, I'm much more of a threat to the DPSer on my healer then a shield/sword guy is. I force them to deal with me while they can ignore you. I may not kill them but I force their healers to focus heal a squishy DPS or the DPS to retreat, or just straight kill them. Your shield and mitigation does nothing when they ignore you and go for the healer. And that is what they will do every time.

[Wodin]

my bad Wolvan, you are correct about the runts ability!

[burt]

From what I've experienced as a healer keeping tanks alive in pvp, I'd rather have a 2hander wielding tank next to me than a 1h/shield tank, and I'd rather have a 1h/shield tank charging forward into enemies than a 2hander wielding tank. The ability to block is an amazing bit of damage mitigation.

Spammable snare, guard, and dps make a 2h tank tickle my sweet spot when I've got a mpds beating in my face.

I think a tank should use a shield if they're in the fray, since it really does mitigate a ton of damage, and their role really is harassment (snares, knockdown/back, guard on real mdps like witch elf and marauder) rather than flat out killing. Not saying you can't kill anything, but I'd rather babysit classes that don't really have the defense of a tank with a shield than RambOrc with a 2hander.

[Wolvan]

Here is one build I'm strongly considering as a damage and support black orc. Get a nice armor group buff etc. Also put in tactics, though 1-2 of them still undecided on. There is like 6-7 career tactics I really like but can only use 4. :(

http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=5#15:33408:0:0:6:32:25:503:739:1703 :1712::::608:1722:1723:1727

[malcolm_mccallum]

I think I'm starting to get the guarding thing down with the Black Orc and the key is Hold Da Line, at least in ranged standoffs (including when only a few people rush past). Black Orcs being in front of all the ranged dealers and holding the line does two things: it draws fire on them but also anyone 40' behind the line of Black Orcs has, in theory, 45% damage mitigation. It seems to me that perhaps instead of tagging some healer for 'save da runts' in a situation like that, set it on the black orc next to you so that the enemy get less benefit from concentrating fire.

On command, the Black Orcs could taunt and charge as a way of alternating the ebb and flow of battle.

This is from limited experience (only to level 10 thus far) and I'm still not sure that the game isn't like all MMOs in that it doesn't really reward defense but only rewards DPS and healing.

[Morethancaffine]

From what I've experienced as a healer keeping tanks alive in pvp, I'd rather have a 2hander wielding tank next to me than a 1h/shield tank, and I'd rather have a 1h/shield tank charging forward into enemies than a 2hander wielding tank. The ability to block is an amazing bit of damage mitigation.

Spammable snare, guard, and dps make a 2h tank tickle my sweet spot when I've got a mpds beating in my face.

I think a tank should use a shield if they're in the fray, since it really does mitigate a ton of damage, and their role really is harassment (snares, knockdown/back, guard on real mdps like witch elf and marauder) rather than flat out killing. Not saying you can't kill anything, but I'd rather babysit classes that don't really have the defense of a tank with a shield than RambOrc with a 2hander.

Since Wolvan and Steingrimr gots me to change me mind on da subject, me find dat dis is wat me has been doing. Me decides wat role me is gunna play usually by wats weapon me has. If me 1 handed weapons is bettur or almost as goods as me 2 hander, me goes sword ands board and charge inta da fray. When me hit levul 18 me gots a medium range knockbacks da really piss da enemies off. Especially when me can knocks dem off a cliff.

When me two hander is bettur dan me 1 hander, me hangs back with da squishies and chops up da enemies when dey come, usin taunts and knockbacks ta keeps em annoyed while choppin em downs.


I think I'm starting to get the guarding thing down with the Black Orc and the key is Hold Da Line, at least in ranged standoffs (including when only a few people rush past). Black Orcs being in front of all the ranged dealers and holding the line does two things: it draws fire on them but also anyone 40' behind the line of Black Orcs has, in theory, 45% damage mitigation. It seems to me that perhaps instead of tagging some healer for 'save da runts' in a situation like that, set it on the black orc next to you so that the enemy get less benefit from concentrating fire.

On command, the Black Orcs could taunt and charge as a way of alternating the ebb and flow of battle.

This is from limited experience (only to level 10 thus far) and I'm still not sure that the game isn't like all MMOs in that it doesn't really reward defense but only rewards DPS and healing.

Me remembur when me was fightin in Troll Country ats one of da BOs dere dat is just besides da enemies warcamp. We wuz tryin ta takes it back fer destruction. Dere was me and annoder black orcs and two Chosen warriors. We jumps out in frunt of da fighting and all started usin da "Hold da Line" ability. Da squishies behinds us was almost invincible and wuz burnin down da enemies lefts and rights. Wit 4 of us wit da "Hold da Line" going, we wuz blockin almost everting dat cames our way. Me wuz even blockin cannonballs wit me shield.

Eventually one of da Chosen goes down and da squishies gots flanked and we all dies cause dey hads more peoples. Buts, it was interestin how easy it was fer da squishies ta takes down da enemies frum behind da line. If we wuz nots at dere warcamps, we woulds have easily defeated a group dat wuz larger den us, but dey kepts respawnin ands jumpin back inta da fray.

Dere is nots really a game mechanics dat rewards defense. Buts, dere is a rewards, joo don'ts die, and can keeps smashin stunties. :D

[Wolvan]

I will have to try and play with Hold the Line some. In a well set up warband, well timed use can be key to fights in certain situations.

Its good for knowledge and opinions to be shared...once we get to 40 and get more end game experience I'm sure things will shape up nicely as long as we keep sharing our experiences.

[Steingrimr]

Hold the Line can be abused....I found myself a few times in the back ranks with a sliver of health, so I'd just turn my back to the fight and pop Hold the Line every time I had a full AP bar. While that's not in the spirit of the ability, it sure seemed handy.

[malcolm_mccallum]

I'm starting to think that 'save da Git' is not actually doing anything at all. I can stand in front of a git with this power on him, with hold da line going, and still see him drop in a matter of seconds without me taking any damage.

I am categorically unable to keep gits alive if anyone wants them dead.

[Steingrimr]

Before the patch on Thursday, it seemed like if I got out of 30 yards of da runt, it seems to fall off the runt, though it still shows active on my bar (active border around it) but the runt does not have the buff icon on him.

Yesterday I was in Stone Troll and I swear that me and da runt got split up, then when we got back in range of each other, the buff was still on him. I'm hoping it got fixed, and it doesn't fall off by design.

I will say though, I'm not entirely sure it's actually doing anything either.

[Morethancaffine]

Before the patch on Thursday, it seemed like if I got out of 30 yards of da runt, it seems to fall off the runt, though it still shows active on my bar (active border around it) but the runt does not have the buff icon on him.

Yesterday I was in Stone Troll and I swear that me and da runt got split up, then when we got back in range of each other, the buff was still on him. I'm hoping it got fixed, and it doesn't fall off by design.

I will say though, I'm not entirely sure it's actually doing anything either.

Me has been runnin wit me friend Alti a lots and she is one of dose Zealot tings. Me knows dat it has been werkin cause me can watch and see it werkin in PvE. Me can nots be in battul, but be nears her, and if she gets attackeds, me will see meself interceptin damage dat she takes. Me often see meself blockin dose attacks wit me shield toos.

In RvR me can nots say fer sure dat it is werkin, cause of all da confusion and da movin arounds dat gets done. Next times we are RvRing togedder me is gunna haves ta watch closur and see if dis is werkin dere toos. Me gunna check me combat chat too and see if it says sumptin abouts interceptin damage toos.

[Morethancaffine]

Here a good questions, as Black Orcs, or tanks in generals, how have joo been assignin importance ta joor stats, both equipments and personul? Wat stats do joo find da most important?

Me is speccin ta be a really tough git. Me decide ta go sword and board, and me main mastery is "Da Toughest".

When me gets a new piece of armor or a weapon, me always rate dem in dis order of importance.

Most important
1. AC (Armor)/ DPS (Weapon)
2. Toughness
3. Wounds
4. Strength
5. Weapon Skill
6. Initative
7. Resists
8. All other stats
Least Important

How do joo do its? Me figures dat an offensive specced tank would value tings likes Strength and Weapon Skills higher den I haves on my list.

[malcolm_mccallum]

I'm building instinctively and my priority is Toughness first, then Armour, and Resistances then wounds. Nothing else matters.

I'm wondering though if willpower will be useful in resisting magics. I hope not.

[Wolvan]

Will power increases your chances of disrupting other people's magic casting, which is why they seem to put it alot on black orc gear.

Since I'm playing as a 2h dps BO, I've been going with a balance between Str, Wounds and Toughness. Once I begin to RvR at more end game status, I'll be putting alot more resistances on too.

[Drakhon]

Will power increases your chances of disrupting other people's magic casting, which is why they seem to put it alot on black orc gear.

I'm unsure if this is what you meant, but a "Disrupt" is the same as a Full Resist in DAoC or WoW and is equivalent to "Dodge" (ranged physical) and "Parry" (melee). It is not the same as a "Pushback" (pushing the target's cast bar back) or an "Interrupt" (canceling the spell altogether).

[Wolvan]

Have to look at the tooltip again. Thought it had said "disrupt" but I'm not positive. I was under the impression that it was an interrupt effect. Might be some confusion on the wording.

[Drakhon]

Willpower does increase your chance to Disrupt, it's just that Disrupt is not what you were thinking it was. It is a defensive bonus equivalent to Parry and Dodge.

[malcolm_mccallum]

Maybe this is common knowledge but I did some testing today with 'Protect da Gits' aka Guard on someone that I wasn't grouped with. The power must be re-applied after every use. It turns off when itis used once.

[Wolvan]

You mean "Save da runts?"?

[malcolm_mccallum]

That'd be it.

[SimplyBlue]

I thought 'Save da runts' was a perpetual buff till the person applying it died or moved away 30 feet?

[Wolvan]

It is. Which is why I am also a bit confused about what he means it drops and has to be reapplied. What I think he is implying is something that I have noticed (but not 100% sure) is if you put Save da runts on somebody not in your group, if you go out of range and then come back in it seems to drop. If you do it on somebody in your group I haven't had any trouble with it. Though if you or the person your guarding dies, it has to be reset.

[malcolm_mccallum]

Yes, it only has to be reapplied with every use if the person is not in your group.

[Radaghast]

Is there a way to macro the guard ability?

something like: /target jimbob /cast save the runt all in one macro?

This would be used in a 6 man group where you have 2 targets you want to regularly guard. I assume it is possible since some of the healing mods use something called "hovercast" where you just hover your mouse over a players name and you can cast a spell on that player.

[Wolvan]

The problem with that is you have to cancel your current guard before you can give it to somebody new (if your first target is still alive) so you have to double click it. Not sure if a macro would work, but a mod could do it.

[Sierpien]

Gork Smash!
I spec Brawler way pass Gork Smash but I don't see it on my tactic list. Do I need to be level 36 to use this tactic?

[Wodin]

Did you spec up the tree to that point AND use another point to purchase the ability?

[Sierpien]

Hmm I got 11pts in Brawler I guess going up the ladder is not enough and I have to select the icon to purchase it?

[Gisli]

Correct.

[Greenmind]

Mythic should make this one of those tooltips when you're at the loading screen. I think I see someone ask it once a day. I know it fooled me.

[Tenomuli]

I have come to absolutely love my black orc. I come from the tintegal cluster in Doac and was in the guild Odyssey. I dont think i have a played a game so far or a character so far that i like better than WH and the BLACK ORC.

[Grey Basha]

We are getting nerfed in 1.2

Black orcs will officially be the worst tanks.

[Maledhros]

How so Grey Basha?

[Rardac]

Ya...inquiring Orcs want to know!

[stroadt]

Right now on the PTS, da toughest proc has received a 75% reduction in effectiveness.

Quite a few itemization changes have swapped str for wounds, especially on weapons.

The T'ree hit combo channeling effect breaks on movement.

Only a couple of abilities received noticable improvements in damage. But, the ones that did got a nice boost (like Down Ya Go).

The class-defining feature is taking a big hit if it goes live as is. Some think the damage gains aren't worth the loss - especially with itemization factored in.

[edits] spelling and link to official PTS feedback thread:

http://forums.warhammeronline.com/warhammer/board/message?board.id=1-2_CC_4&thread.id=3