Graphics card problem

[Gisli]

OK, I went ahead and got that 9600 GT that Drakhon recommended. Problem is, its overheating badly. Takes about 10 minutes for the screen to totally go nuts, classic graphics card heat symptoms.

Its a humongus thing, cased in metal, twice as wide as my previous card, has its own fan (that's not so unusual), and has its own double power plug (that I did plug in). Is it reasonable that it would be overheating right off the bat? I guess an obvious answer is to add more cooling fans in the case, but I wanted to see if people think there's something wrong with the card itself.

[Aoann]

Is your power supply big enough for this card?

[Wazdakka]

Is your power supply big enough for this card?

Try running it with the side of the case open. Also, with the computer on, slide a strip of paper into the fan just to see if the fan is actually running. Maybe download and run sysfan and see if the temps look high there.


And no, it is not reasonable for it to be overheating right off the bat. Something somewhere is wrong.

[Aoann]

Did you download the latest drivers? http://www.nvidia.com/Download/index.aspx?lang=en-us

[Gisli]

Try running it with the side of the case open.

That does not solve the problem.


Also, with the computer on, slide a strip of paper into the fan just to see if the fan is actually running. Maybe download and run sysfan and see if the temps look high there.

I couldn't find "sysfan" but I did find and download something called "speedfan". Basically, it just tells me the obvious. It says that the CPU temperature is fine, but something called "AUX" is running at 110 degrees. Obviously not right. The monitoring software only recognizes that the CPU fan is running, and thinks the "AUX" fan is not, but I don't think that indicates anything directly about the graphics card.

Yes, the fan on the graphics card is running. Not vacuum cleaner force, but noticeable suction.

For what it is worth, the case has a 3-inch fan blowing air onto the hard drive at the front, and another 3-inch fan sucking air out of the case on the side. Besides the big CPU fan (and the new fan on the graphics card), those are the only fans that I notice.

But, the graphics card is running SO hot SO fast... I've got difficulty believing that putting another fan in several inches away to increase air flow through the system could actually solve the problem. Note that the card exhibits heat problems just from turning the computer on and running Vista. I don't have to be running high intensity graphics like a game.

[Dall dies to much]

which brand?

also...

download this (even is it isn't an EVGA card) and manually crank the the card fan speed up to 80% and force it to stay there. (or 90% depedning on how much wirl sound you can deal with)

http://www.evga.com/precision/

(just move the fan slider up, and hit apply. if it won't move, clcik the "auto" button. you'll hear the thing speed up. if that fixes the issue, click the little "wrench" icon and start with windows)

if you are still having issues, RMA time my friend. the heatsink/fan combo might be seated wrong and causing this.

(there is some issues with a certain nvidia driver causing the stupid cards to not scale the fan right)

[Wazdakka]

which brand?

also...

download this (even is it isn't an EVGA card) and manually crank the the card fan speed up to 80% and force it to stay there. (or 90% depedning on how much wirl sound you can deal with)

http://www.evga.com/precision/

if you are still having issues, RMA time my friend. the heatsink/fan combo might be seated wrong and causing this.

(there is some issues with a certain nvidia driver causing the stupid cards to not scale the fan right)


Yeah, it was late. I meant speedfan. That's a good call, Dall. I'd return the card if it requires the fan to be turned up like that though. You should't need to up the fan unless you are overclocking or running it hard for long periods.

What I would do at this point is: If you have another computer available to try the card in, see if it has issues there. If you don't have another comp around assume it is bad and return or rma it. Actually, if you bought it locally I'd save the effort and return it now.

[Radaghast]

Return the 9600 and get a 8800. The 600 series is Nvidia's cheapest chip, you can get a 8800 that will outpeform it for roughly the same price.

See Caere's post a few down, he seems to agree with me as well :)

[Dall dies to much]

ya, i would say return.. but!

four possible issues that are causing this

a) the card and drivers are not scaling the fan with temp.
B )the psu is not strong enough and causing soemthing shitty to happen
c) the fan/heatsink isn't mounted right
d) Gisli liked teh hot house and the air flow in the case isn't moving enough CFM

my test method will fix (a), (B ) is a larger issue and even replacing the card won't fix it, (C) is a good bet also. things happen during production/shipping. D) is Mr. 120mm fan problem and my little test will help it a bit, not much though

also, the EVGA tool will tell him card temp.

and if something in his comp is running at 110c .. soemthing is bad! (~250 f)

[Cillbo]

Speedfan can be a bit flaky with sensors. I wouldn't trust it. Precision is much better for GPU temp readings.

I don't think that's your problem though. Try downloading the latest beta drivers.

http://www.nvidia.com/Download/Find.aspx?lang=en-us

They have some stability, performance, and fan speed fixes. Just remember to UNINSTALL the old drivers (should be under "Nvidia drivers" in the uninstall menu), reboot, then install the new drivers.

[Aoann]

ya, i would say return.. but!

four possible issues that are causing this

a) the card and drivers are not scaling the fan with temp.
B )the psu is not strong enough and causing soemthing shitty to happen
c) the fan/heatsink isn't mounted right
d) Gisli liked teh hot house and the air flow in the case isn't moving enough CFM

my test method will fix (a), (B ) is a larger issue and even replacing the card won't fix it, (C) is a good bet also. things happen during production/shipping. D) is Mr. 120mm fan problem and my little test will help it a bit, not much though

also, the EVGA tool will tell him card temp.

and if something in his comp is running at 110c .. soemthing is bad! (~250 f)

His fan/heatsink for the cpu should be already mounted?

[Jalec]

I would say see if you can find a compatible 3rd party program and just manually set your fan to 55 or 65. i have an ATI card so it may not work for you but ive found riva tune works very very well... if only they would update to work on the 4870x2!!!!!

[Gisli]

Thanks for the suggestions!

It is this card: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130328

Yes, I downloaded the nvidia driver (though it might not have been beta). And I did NOT uninstall the old driver. I will do that again.

I *think* that the power supply is 430, but I'll double check that.

Cillbo, what is the tool you are saying I should use?

Since it is an EVGA card, I will play around with that fan setting tool, to see what happens.

My guess is the bottom line will be some sort of return, but I'll give these things a shot tonight.

[Jalec]

If you can find an accurate temp from something let us know what its at, at load. my card hovers around 85 with auto fan control... i hate it but i have no choice right now. if its over 100 i would say the software fan control is defective. if its over 110 then its probably a hardware issue.

[Aoann]

I have never uninstalled the old drivers. I've never had a problem.

[Wazdakka]

I have never uninstalled the old drivers. I've never had a problem.


Ahh, a superclocked edition. yeah, try the fan speed then. It could well be running at the base speed for the card rather than an increased speed to deal with the overclock.

[Caere]

Howdy Gisli,

I suspect the problem is one of two things:

1. The gpu fan setting is too low. The evga 9600GT ships with a fan setting of 23%, I think, try 80% using nVidia's nTune. You can get the latest version here.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/ntune_5.05.54.00.html

You're ultimately looking for a temperature somewhere around 32 degrees idle, 43 degrees under load.


2. Your psu is too small. I didn't see any info about your CPU in this thread. Would need to know that first, though.


/cheers

Caere

[Gisli]

Sorry, Caere, I should have thought to include that. The CPU is an Intel duel core 2.4 GHz.

[Dall dies to much]

His fan/heatsink for the cpu should be already mounted?

the fan/heatsink combo on the card might have been mis-aligned during production or banged around too much during shipping (UPS monkeys flingng boxes)

[Matael]

You really should upgrade your PSU. You have to have a dedicated 12v 3a (iirc) rail for your G80+ GPU.

[Wazdakka]

You really should upgrade your PSU. You have to have a dedicated 12v 3a (iirc) rail for your G80+ GPU.
I have run an 8800gts on a 430 PSU, if that helps.

[Cillbo]

I have never uninstalled the old drivers. I've never had a problem.
It will not hurt. Also, was that from just updates to the drivers, or adding a new card?


Cillbo, what is the tool you are saying I should use?
http://www.evga.com/precision/

The one Dall pointed to. You will need to register with EVGA (pain in the ass, I know) but it's the easiest tool to use IMO. It's just a rebranded Rivatuner if you are comfortable using that. Just set it to 100% and try it out. If you still have trouble, fan speed is NOT the issue.

On the PSU, are you using a 6 pin PCIe connector from the PSU, or a Molex (old standard 4 pin) adapter? Make sure if you have a 6 pin that you are using it. If you don't have a 6 pin, the PSU may very well be too small. Remember, not all PSUs are created equal.

[Matael]

Being able to run it and running it safely are two different things. Sure I could crank up the boost on my car to 30psi, but without all the support mods something will break. Starving your video card of needed amperage risks it dying prematurely. At the least you'll be getting annoying errors and possibly BSoD.

[Vadokri]

i agree w/Matael on your PSU. In almost all cases once you do a fan fix it should work. i do like the fact that ati's aren't the only cards that need fan fixes :)...

I did a fan fix on my

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127370

which I have 2 in xfire.

[Drakhon]

Return the 9600 and get a 8800. The 600 series is Nvidia's cheapest chip, you can get a 8800 that will outpeform it for roughly the same price.

See Caere's post a few down, he seems to agree with me as well :)

At the time, he was looking at $20-$30 more for the 8800 GT, which really wasn't worth it given the small performance difference between the superclocked 9600 and the 8800 when he was looking for a $100 expenditure. At this point, unless he needs to return it anyway due to the problems he's having, it's probably best to wait and see what happens with the prices on EVGA's cards. He'll be able to Step Up within 90 days of his purchase and he might be able to get something better than the 8800 GT if they come down to that card's current price point. At worst, he'd be looking at an 8800 GTS (G92) instead of the 8800 GT for the same amount of money.

[Matael]

eVGA also has an upgrade policy he should look into for new cards if it's within their purchase window.

[Caere]

Any performance difference between the 8800GT and 9600GT is moot in this case. Both cards will run Warhmmer fine; and secondly, the 9600GT uses less power, even though it has the same system requirements.

A 2.4gHz duo core processor is probably the E6600, which with a 430W or 450W PS should work fine with the 9600GT. That's assuming a normal system with a garden assortment of devices: DVD burner, hard disk, mouse, keyboard, etc.



/cheers

Caere

[Gisli]

Yes, that's about what I have, Caere. Nothing fancy draining power here. I would have been surprised if the power supply were really too weak.

[Dall dies to much]

The one Dall pointed to. You will need to register with EVGA (pain in the ass, I know) but it's the easiest tool to use IMO. It's just a rebranded Rivatuner if you are comfortable using that. Just set it to 100% and try it out. If you still have trouble, fan speed is NOT the issue.


he should have done this when he got the card, both for warrenty and Step-up purposes



ya, but all power supplies are not equal at the same wattage

its like comparing a yugo to a new mini cooper

ya, they are both subcompact cars that get good MPH... but....

case in point, Saithia blew her PSU over the weekend playing WAR.. some no name PoS brand L&S .. was just stressing the system way to much and the PSU couldn't keep up

so I got to walk her through replacing a PSU monday night ^_^

[Gisli]

he should have done this when he got the card, both for warrenty and Step-up purposes

That would imply that EVGA mentioned doing something like this in their documentation. Wow... including this in their software disk... that would have been clever!

OK, I installed Precision. It reports the fan was originally at 35%. I set it at 91%. Last night, speedfan claimed an "AUX" temperature of 110. With the new fan setting, Pecision rports a GPU temperature of 47, while speedfan reports "AUX" at 98. I tried running Warhammer, but it was all screwed up. I'm going to try beta drivers next.

[Cillbo]

OK, I installed Precision. It reports the fan was originally at 35%. I set it at 91%. Last night, speedfan claimed an "AUX" temperature of 110. With the new fan setting, Pecision rports a GPU temperature of 47, while speedfan reports "AUX" at 98. I tried running Warhammer, but it was all screwed up. I'm going to try beta drivers next.

Don't trust Speedfan for anything. EVGA has it right, I'm sure.

[Drakhon]

An AUX that high in speedfan typically means it's trying to read a probe that doesn't exist according to what I've found.

[Gisli]

The driver I am using is 175.19 from the Nvidia site. I didn't see anything about betas.

I'm going to play around with nTune next. I've definitely got some problems remaining. Running the system stability test almost immediately crashed. It said the display driver stopped responding and recovered. Any suggestions?

[Cillbo]

The beta drivers are the sixth option from the link I posted before.

http://www.nvidia.com/Download/Find.aspx?lang=en-us

A dead card, PSU, or drivers are all I can think of.

[Dall dies to much]

hey.. do us techies a favor...

put your old video card back in, and redo the drivers...

that 110c has me perplexed


and ya, 47c on the video card sounds about right for the 9600. I idle around 50c with a overclocked 8800 gs




he should have done this when he got the card, both for warrenty and Step-up purposes
That would imply that EVGA mentioned doing something like this in their documentation. Wow... including this in their software disk... that would have been clever!


opps.. sorry about that... one of those things I forget isn't exactly common knowledge ;)

oh.. they include it.. on the GTX 260 and 280 <ducks>




A dead card, PSU, or drivers are all I can think of.


concur... but I got a feeling its PSU or Card.

[Jalec]

Honestly the only time i see this issue is when ive overclocked my card too far and the limit to the core and mem clocks has been reached not really due to heat. maybe try underclocking your card. i know this is kinda crappy and pointless since you went with an OC card but if it works then maybe the oc is pushed a might too far for this gpu. If thats so then you might be looking at bad card.

[Kailikor]

I don't know much about Nvidia cards since I'm an ATI fan boy, but the picture of Gisli's card on Newegg.com shows that it's a single slot card (i.e. no exhaust port on the rear). Several years ago I had an ATI Radeon 9800 that was a single slot card. It constantly overheated when playing DAoC. I eventually upgraded to one of ATI's newer double slot cards and the overheating problem went away. I would highly recommend double slot (either ATI or Nvidia) for gamers.

I currently have an ATI Radeon HD 4870 in my game computer. I used to have an ATI Radeon HD 3870. Actually, if you can still find a 3870, it's an awesome card considering that the prices have fallen to about $100 - $140 for the double slot 512MB version.

[Caere]

The factory oc on this card is from 650 to 675, which is pretty minimal. It's more marketing than technical I think.

*****
Obviously, it's tough to guess the problem without being there to see exactly what happens, but my guess is you had two problems: 1) an overheating board, and 2) some internal incompatibilities.

It sounds like problem 1 is gone if you're idling at 47c. That's definately in the normal range.

For problem number 2, I'd try to solve it like this. Write down your processor, motherboard, os, and vid card. Find some very, very specific errors. Then hit the Google bricks with the best keywords you can come up with.

Example: "Display Driver igfx stopped responding" egva 9600gt e6600 Asus p45 vista

Almost certainly there are people out there with the exact same equipment you have, getting the exact same errors. So you need to be very specific. Essentially you want to find the posts in some geek forum with exactly your problem. It's not too tough, if you can get one or two system error messages, and copy three or four words of it exactly for Sir Google.

Who knows? It might be solved by drivers, OS patch, MB BIOS upgrade, tightening a loose part, or you might find out that no one could solve it, and it's a bad board or something.



Caere

[Drakhon]

I would highly recommend double slot (either ATI or Nvidia) for gamers.

Meh, it's more that the cards that gamers want/need tend to be the dual slot ones, but it all depends on the card. The 9600 is fine as a single slot as long as there is decent airflow through the case and you're not going with crazy overclocks on it (SSC is not all that much on this card) or your processor.

[Jalec]

I don't know much about Nvidia cards since I'm an ATI fan boy, but the picture of Gisli's card on Newegg.com shows that it's a single slot card (i.e. no exhaust port on the rear). Several years ago I had an ATI Radeon 9800 that was a single slot card. It constantly overheated when playing DAoC. I eventually upgraded to one of ATI's newer double slot cards and the overheating problem went away. I would highly recommend double slot (either ATI or Nvidia) for gamers.

I currently have an ATI Radeon HD 4870 in my game computer. I used to have an ATI Radeon HD 3870. Actually, if you can still find a 3870, it's an awesome card considering that the prices have fallen to about $100 - $140 for the double slot 512MB version.

Im actually selling my brand new 3870. picked up a 4870x2 to replace it :)

[Markhos]

I see you are already trying to make the fan faster... good. Try to declock the card. Yes, I know... why to declock it?! You bought one that can be overclockedit and you want to use it a full capacity.
Declock it a lot, keep the fan fast and see if it still acts strange. If it does, it may not be just overheating.
I had to declock a XfX 9600 GT OC in a friends PC becuase she could run AoC perfectly but when playing DAoC the computer crashed (blank screen... she previously had a 6800 and never used to crashed while playing DAoC... for some reason DAoC was more demaning than AoC... yeah... crazy, I know). Declocking just a little and setting the fan faster worked in her case.
Not sure if it will help you but I think some graphic cards manufacturers are overclocking the lastest cards too much.

Another idea... google your motherboard and you graphic card to see if anyone reported any problem at all.

[Gisli]

Sorry to keep bringing this up, but I'm rather stuck. The saga continues...

First, I replaced my power supply. The EVGA customer support said my old one was insufficient (430 watts, only one rail). OK, that is taken care of now.

I had the 9600GT installed, and every time I stress the system (run a game, for example), I get various funny screen effects, or can't run the game at all. It seemed that if I went into Precision and dialed down the clock speed, it got better... not perfect. That could just be a random effect. Note that temperature is NOT an issue, its typically around 60 degrees. I spoke with EVGA a few times (and they are VERY good!). They had me replace my drivers, I did this a couple of times in various ways. Bottom line is that I'm now running their copy of 177.79.

After all that, and still not running right, they said I should go to the website and initiate an RMA. OK.

So, I figured I'll stick the old graphics card back in. Actually, this isn't the first time I tried, I was getting problems with it too. But I chalked that up to the old power supply going bad from all the stress put on it earlier by the 9600GT. So I put it in tonight (with the good power supply). And I'm having troubles again (though I can't recall exactly what was happening at this point).

So... I look at my memory again. Intermixed with the rest of this saga, I've also been trying to install more memory. But I can't seem to get that to work right. Mostly, I've ended up running the two new sticks in the other two bays, because that seemed to work OK.

Well, I look at this, and decide, OK, I might as well try exactly the configuration I had before (I could swear I've tried this already, but anyway...). I put the old sticks into the original two bays. (It is possible I've swapped the two, but otherwise its identical to before). And I put in the old card. And, low and behold... its working perfectly! It even passes the nTune system stress test. Something I've not been able to do since I started this.

OK, so now I think I'm on to something! So I think... hey, let me try the new card again. Maybe all of my problems are related to a bad memory stick (or a bad memory slot). So I put in the 9600GT again. And... Windows starts to boot. Vista has a phase where there is a little bar that runs horizontally a few times at the bottom of the screen, followed by a circle with the Vista logo appearing in the middle of the screen. Right at that transition between the bar and the circle... BSoD, over and over. No can do with getting the new card to run with the memory in that configuration. If I put the memory back the way I was running with it earlier, I'll bet that it will "sort of" run again, since that is what I had earlier tonight. Meaning a flakey 9600GT graphics card that does work until I stress it. That was with new memory sticks in the other two bays. But I didn't actually do it yet again.

OK, so what gives? I'm thinking at this point the only real option is a bad motherboard.

For what it is worth, it will boot in safe mode.

[Aoann]

I don't know a lot about this but if it worked perfect with the old stuff in, I am guessing it is probably the card it's self.

[Wazdakka]

Just a diagnostic step here...try it with only one stick, then the other stick. See if it fails either of those times.

[Gisli]

Waz, it crashes both ways (either stick).

I think at this point, since I know how to make the old machine stable, I'm going to return both the card and the memory, turn the old computer over to the kids, and get a new computer.

One last question. What is the difference between an 8800GT and a 9800GT?

[Cillbo]

OK, I would like to offer some troubleshooting technique. Assume everything is broken until you prove it's good. I mean EVERYTHING (CPU, GPU, PSU, memory, mainboard, any other add on cards, OS, drivers, and any onboard devices). This may seem like overkill and a waste of time, but it's the best way to find "strange problems". Also, if something is not makeing any sense, you've made an improper assumption. That was my old boss's favortive thing to say to me. :)



Couple of tests that will help.

1. http://www.memtest.org/download/2.01/memtest86+-2.01.iso.zip
Burn that iso, and reboot from the cd. Let it run a few loops, but be patient. It will take a little time. Try it with the new memory installed too.

2. http://mersenne.org/gimps/p95v256.zip
Run the Prime95 stress test. It only stresses the CPU and memory, and doesn't throw the GPU into the mix like Nvidia's test.

If you would like to get into vent sometime, I would be more than willing to talk with you about things.

[Isak]

Sounds like it was a PSU issue, unfortunately PSU issues can cause other things to go bad. I'd agree to just buy a new computer, unless you want to go through and check every piece of hardware.

[Wazdakka]

Waz, it crashes both ways (either stick).

I think at this point, since I know how to make the old machine stable, I'm going to return both the card and the memory, turn the old computer over to the kids, and get a new computer.

One last question. What is the difference between an 8800GT and a 9800GT?


The main differences seem to be that the 9800 has support for hybrid power (not something I care much about) and it has connectors for 3-way sli. Otherwise it's the same core, memory and bandwidth.

[Jalec]

Hmm very strange issue you have going on here. memtest is definately a good way to rule out a ram problem. I personally like prime95 but there is an app out there called Occt. It does a much better job of stressing the cpu on top of having a feature to protect your cpu by stopping the test if temps get too high.Have we checked your CPU temps? there is a program called Real Temp that works well.

Motherboard definately sounds like it could be the problem but honestly there isnt enough data to rule out the card or the ram either. do you have another machine to try your vid card in? a friend close by. that would rule out the card if it works.

[Radaghast]

8800 vs 9800:

The 9800 is obiviously 1 generation newer (and probably still costs more), it will outperform almost every 8800 model, but both should play WAR very well.

Both support DX10, other than performance I believe the other advantage of the 9800 is it supports 3-way SLI (which only serious enthusiasts will ever use), both models support 2-way SLI.

[Vadokri]

Well, another thing you can do is look at your motherboard and see if you see any popped or warped capacitors. The problem could have been the PSU and when PSU's screw up they like taking things with them. In all honesty if you have the money to just build another or buy certain parts than do it. No matter how you look at it you are running out of time with each passing day. I'm positive you want a working computer by headstart if not sooner. I'm sure you have many parts you can use in a new build so your cost would be minimal.

[Drakhon]

The 9800 is obiviously 1 generation newer (and probably still costs more), it will outperform almost every 8800 model, but both should play WAR very well.


Due to Nvidia's really strange scheme this time around, the 9800 isn't a new generation compared to the 8800GT or 8800GTS (the ones with the G92 chip which have 512MB, not the 320 or 640).

In addition to what Waz mentioned, new 9800GT's will use the 55nm G92b compared to the 8800GT and original 9800GT's 65nm G92(a), though I'm not sure what cards with the new chips are available yet. This means less heat and power usage, though standard clocks remain the same so there is no real performance increase unless you clock it higher than you can an 8800.

[Jalec]

the drivers have also been called sub par for the 9000 series and many many people are pissed at the lack of a true difference between 8000 and 9000 series. many people i know are ready to leave nvidia over the obvious money grab for lack of research.

[Aoann]

Eh I am not card loyal.

[Wazdakka]

If you can swing it and you would like to semi-future-proof your computer, you might consider a gtx 200. I have the superclocked gtx 260 and have zero heat issues and wonderful in-game performance. Even the big bright-wizzie explosions just appear and quickly dissipate so that they improve my experience rather than degrade it.


That's with the latest drivers. I had some heat issues with the late may drivers, whatever version that was.

[Markhos]

Gisli, do you have any friend with a computer where you can test the new graphic card?
Could you google if your motherboard has any problem with the 9600? Asking cuz I am pretty sure some motherboards had problem with some 8800s and they had to be BIOS upgraded.
I hope you make it work before considering using a hammer. hehe :)

[Gisli]

I "made it work" by putting my computer back exactly the way it was before I started, and tomorrow I send everything back to where it came from. :) Then I start working on a new computer (http://www.ravensofwar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=698). The kids get to inherit this one (theirs is like 5 years old).

[Markhos]

:)

[Dall dies to much]

hehe :)